Tested: How Many Times Can a DVD±RW Be Rewritten? Methodology and Results
217 points by giuliomagnifico 5 days ago | 71 comments

parsimo2010 15 hours ago
I love this and I love seeing that it's from 2026 and someone still took the time to do all this testing- it must have been seriously involved because even at 6x it takes a while to fill up a DVD, and then to repeat that hundreds of times on several discs would be an eternity.

I haven't used a DVD+-RW in several years, as wireless file transfer over networks and flash drives handle pretty much all of my needs now, but I sure used the heck out of my DVD writer when I had it. I had no idea these discs could go hundreds of writes before failure, I always got paranoid about reliability and probably never went above 20 writes on a disc.

Edit: at the end of the post the author says, "that’s about 4020 hours across two drives, 5248 burns and both drives are still seemingly operating just fine." What a colossal amount of time.

reply
avadodin 8 hours ago
I thought two-three times. Maybe a dozen. I always treated all kinds of writeable CD/DVDs as if they were one-write and done.

To be honest, it hurts every time I write to an SSD drive — which is all of the time these days.

reply
Fnoord 3 hours ago
For archiving, DVD is 4 GB and who knows how long the medium will last.

LTO-6 drives go for 300-500 EUR refurbished. You need a FC switch or HBA. Each tape holds 2+ TB uncompressed data.

As for NVMe, if you do a lot of writes (e.g. DB's, Docker), go for enterprise. If you do that, grab one with PLP. You'd use it also as a cache for ZFS.

reply
sva_ 3 hours ago
I just checked using $ sudo smartctl -a /dev/nvme0n1

    Percentage Used:                    2%
    Data Units Read:                    7,173,143 [3.67 TB]
    Data Units Written:                 22,666,414 [11.6 TB]
That's after about 2 years of use. I think SSDs can take quite the beating nowadays.
reply
rlv-dan 11 hours ago
I wrote an article in a similar vein some years ago that might interest you too:

https://www.rlvision.com/blog/how-long-do-writable-cddvd-las...

reply
CamelCaseCondo 8 hours ago
From my personal experience, the article and the comments I read here they seriously undersold the reliability of rewriting. For any other RW medium (audio or video cassettes, even floppies) I remember ad campaigns by Sony, TDK, Philips, … on tv. But not for these.
reply
rkagerer 7 hours ago
I feel in general the industry was more conservative making these kind of estimates than it is today. I assume they also benefited from years of CD-RW field experience honing the tech.
reply
krige 10 hours ago
Ye, having experienced the "joys" of rewriteable CDs, I completely skipped the DVD RWs, expecting more of the same. Guess it wasn't, but then again, thumb drives became a thing.
reply
tombert 14 hours ago
DVD-RWs always seemed like complete magic to me. I had no idea how they worked, or why they worked. I made and wiped DVD-RWs as a teenager dozens of times, because my dad got annoyed that I kept using up all his DVD-R's, so I bought like three DVD-RWs and used them for all my experiments.

I don't think I got anywhere near the limits for any of them, as I don't remember getting any faults from them, but they were always cool to me.

I was also one of the happy few who had a DVD-RAM drive for my desktop as a teenager; I never really understood why DVD-RAM never caught on, because it seemed to work fine for me, and it was kind of nice not having to wipe the disk to erase stuff.

reply
lxgr 5 hours ago
They definitely are mysterious, but to me, magneto-optical media (such as MiniDiscs) take the cake.

Written magnetically (while heated by a laser), read optically (by a much weaker laser), and somehow all of that fit into a pocketable player powered for 10+ hours by a single AA battery!?

Unlike rewritable optical media, opto-magnetic storage also seems to have effectively unlimited rewrite cycles. It's a real shame they never became a popular data storage option, mainly due to Sony's paranoia stemming from also owning a huge music and film division.

reply
Fnoord 3 hours ago
Music-wise, lossy compression takes place via a proprietary codec (ATRAC). It isn't viable for data storage (neither was CDR(W)). Trust me, I had data loss due to all of these. Just use LTO with some parity data.
reply
lxgr 2 hours ago
Not sure I understand, are you saying that you were using MiniDiscs or other MO media and were experiencing bit rot?

Making ATRAC the exclusive and mandatory codec for MiniDisc Audio was another typical unfortunate Sony move but in my view doesn't discredit the strengths of the physical storage medium.

reply
Fnoord 7 minutes ago
Honestly, I wasn't being specific. I like a specific music genre, and within this music genre some unique content was saved to DAT and Minidisc. The DATs were lost, and so the only available medium has been based on Minidisc.
reply
Tuna-Fish 8 hours ago
dvd-ram drives and media were always premium products, with the drives at least ~4x more expensive than the -r drives of the time, and the media was much worse than that.

When -r disks bought in bulk cost ~20c each, $10 disks are a hard sell.

reply
Dylan16807 9 hours ago
I guess the drives just cost too much and so zip won until flash drives took over.
reply
GiorgioG 2 hours ago
People who still remember Zip drives! In college I did tech support for Iomega. It was an interesting time ;)
reply
actionfromafar 5 hours ago
I saw zip adoption before CD-RW, flash drives much later. But maybe it depended on how much data you needed transferred. Early flash drives were much smaller than CD/DVD.
reply
officeplant 3 hours ago
I miss my first 128mb usb drive. Cost nearly $40 and survived a dozen wash cycles accidently left in my pocket all the time. Now days I've got 64gb drives that seem to shit the bed after a few rounds as a Live-USB linux environment. At least they only cost $15 or less.
reply
ChrisGreenHeur 11 hours ago
[flagged]
reply
blue_pants 10 hours ago
Epoxy and brushes?

Doesn't it use a special metal layer, and the laser high-heats the spots to make them amorphous (to write) and then low-heats them to crystallize (to erase)?

reply
fhdkweig 3 hours ago
I think there was intended sarcasm/joke.
reply
yibers 8 hours ago
The DVD+RW actually used pencil and eraser technology instead. It was a surprisingly robust method.
reply
scientism 6 hours ago
Then came DVD±RW which used the magic pen technology. Each time you write, it changed both the color of the disc and the data. Surprisingly enough if you did it long enough it ended in color/data corruption...
reply
awesomeMilou 10 hours ago
Won't the epoxy run out at some point?
reply
ChrisGreenHeur 10 hours ago
That's the amazing part, when making the holes the epoxy melts and drips down into the collection bucket that the brush uses
reply
thombat 9 hours ago
It comes years too late, but I finally understand the reliability problems I had with a DVD drive mounted on its side. If only I'd had your insight then, I could have taken the PC to a playground and burnt disks on the carousel.
reply
jagged-chisel 7 hours ago
I wouldn’t have expected gravity to be a problem at these scales. Wouldn’t surface tension override here? Maybe I’m totally off base …
reply
afandian 6 hours ago
The original solution involved a very thick disc which could then leveled and re-pitted. The problem was that the change in mass over time made it hard to calibrate the acceleration.

It also put a high radial load on the spindle whilst mounted sideways which led to run-out.

And flooding the area with radon (a heavy gas) helped the disc to float a bit, but had unexpected consequences...

reply
mgrandl 10 hours ago
I guess the holes are so microscopic, even one cubic centimeter would last for the lifetime of the device.
reply
s_dev 9 hours ago
This is a troll.
reply
bityard 8 hours ago
No, it's a joke
reply
15155 10 hours ago
Or, you know, how the technology actually works: two different lasers and crystallization states.
reply
ChrisGreenHeur 7 hours ago
Sure, dvds work by magic crystals.
reply
sethammons 7 hours ago
Next you're gonna tell me that applications run on text you can write by hand. Pffft. Ain't no way
reply
doublerabbit 6 hours ago
LLM's are actually little elves from the DMT dimension. They got captured and compressed in to silicon cells that now been enslaved by the evil. If you ask a LLM they will tell you it's true.
reply
bluedino 2 hours ago
I always wanted to like DVD-RW and CD-RW. But I just couldn't.

Cost. A couple dollars per disc, versus a couple pennies per disc for the one-time use.

Easily scratched.

They were slow. You could use a Syquest or Iomega 1GB drive, boot off it, etc. Basically as fast as a hard drive was.

They were compatible until they weren't. Plenty of issues trying to read those things on other computers.

reply
grepfru_it 14 hours ago
>Windows Updates

If you want to stop windows updates, make your internet connection a metered connection. Updates will only be allowed on-demand.

The more you know!

reply
grishka 3 hours ago
For a nuclear option, delete C:\windows\system32\wua* or move these files somewhere else.
reply
dataflow 9 hours ago
I'm pretty sure I read that at some point they started still allowing updates on metered connections, just slower or more critical or something.
reply
ocdtrekkie 13 hours ago
If you have a Pro edition license most things Windows does are a registry key away. The entire policy branch of the registry is designed to have configuration pushed down from the network like when and how to update, but you can also set all of those keys manually.

(Also, no hacking is necessary to set up a Windows Pro install with a local account, just tell it you're going to domain join it.)

reply
tom_ 12 hours ago
The local account tip is a good one. I used it when setting up Windows 11 Pro on my desktop PC.

Regarding updates: you might not even need to think about registry keys! I found these Windows 10 group policy settings to work well for many years: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18157968 - and I'm still using them with Windows 11, near enough, though it seems you now need to go to "Windows Update\Manage end user experience" to find the Configure Automatic Updates setting I mention.

(I've also switched to using option 2 (Notify for download and auto install) rather than 3 (Auto download and notify for install), on the basis that it sounds safer, and I've had no problems from doing that. Not to say that I actually remember having any problems from letting Windows download the updates ahead of time! - but I'm comfortable living dangerously.)

reply
avidiax 13 hours ago
One hint for the wary: Don't delay feature updates for the maximum allowed in the group policy editor. I couldn't figure out why I was getting forced reboots for updates despite other policies requiring it to ask permission. Turns out that if the update hits the group policy maximum, it forces an update immediately, other policies be damned.

So set it to the max - 14 days if you want some time to apply updates at your leisure, and you are wary of non-critical updates.

reply
rkagerer 7 hours ago
If you don't want feature updates, go Windows 11 IoT Enterprise LTSC. It's a comparative breath of fresh air and what Windows should have been all along. No ads, no new unwanted bloat shoved down your throat, no mandatory TPM, and pretty much the longest security patch commitment of anything out of Microsoft. It works great as a daily driver.
reply
VorpalWay 10 hours ago
You could also use an OS that doesn't tend to have dodgy updates that brick your system, such as most Linux distro. Nor force you to update if you don't want to.

Funny how a large company like Microsoft can't figure out QA, but volunteer Linux distros with much less resources can.

(A lot of Windows specific software works in wine these days, Valve's investment into improving it for games have helped for applications too. Not everything, and if you are stuck with such software, yeah that sucks.)

reply
fc417fc802 4 hours ago
> if you are stuck with such software

kvm-qemu, windows image, block network access to the windows update servers, problem solved?

reply
bearjaws 5 hours ago
I used to work for a vendor who wrote the drivers for iTunes CD burning, I actually built a in house tool that could take multiple machines with 8 drives each and test our driver by burning to CD-R, DVD-R, DVD-RW, etc... and read the data back to ensure no regressions in our drivers.

Reason for testing so many drives is that when it comes to the real world, a lot of drive manufacturers cut corners and didn't follow standards, so we had a growing list of "work arounds" that we would validate. Every manufacturer would send us their drives to validate, we had a huge closet with shelves floor to ceiling of different drives.

Was a cool internship out of high school an forever thankful that I got it. Even if it's my most boomer skillset.

Couple of main things that post are 100% correct, the brand of media does matter. We actually had specific media we would recommend to the DOD for maximum stability. Second of all faster media always performs worse for archival purposes, and burning faster will result in more errors as well.

For testing we had a specific media for each type we found could be used for 25x tests reliably, but I don't remember the brands/type. We would basically load them once a year since we did a full verification every few weeks.

reply
zozbot234 11 hours ago
DVD±RW is old stuff, I want proper phase-change persistent memory. Bring back Intel Optane and hook it up to a modern, high-performance PCIe bus.
reply
userbinator 10 hours ago
The same site has an article on that: https://goughlui.com/2024/07/28/tech-flashback-intel-optane-...

Retention issues are a bit worrying.

reply
rkagerer 7 hours ago
This is awesome, thanks.

My understanding is Optane is still unbeaten today when it comes to latency. Has anyone examined its use as a workstation OS volume compared to leading SSD's?

reply
myself248 5 hours ago
My kingdom for a MicroSD card with Optane inside.
reply
LargoLasskhyfv 3 hours ago
There may be hope for something like that happening, conceptually at least. Underlying technology is different, though:

https://www.heise.de/en/news/Memory-chip-company-FMC-keeps-w...

https://www.ferroelectric-memory.com/technology/

reply
stavros 6 hours ago
Why did the author have to do all this hacking around with screenshots? Back in the day, you could query any window for its title/text/buttons and send events to the buttons directly. Is this not the case in Windows any more?
reply
gzread 33 minutes ago
Apart from win32 itself, most frameworks (everything from Java Swing to Electron) just use the win32 API to draw pixels to the screen and don't integrate with the window hierarchy.
reply
compounding_it 6 hours ago
Would be interested to know if automating rewrites makes the disc run hotter which affects the disc lifetime physically as opposed to writing it and then removing it which cools it off (but may cause physical wear and tear from handling it). Does heat play a role in degradation or whether it’s the opposite and helps it in some way.
reply
einpoklum 31 minutes ago
With USB drives today being large and popular, what are the main uses of DVD-R's and DVD-RW's, in your experience?
reply
lxgr 5 hours ago
What a great analysis! 20 years ago, this would have saved me a lot of headache/anxiety and a moderate amount of pocket money :)
reply
haunter 9 hours ago
I wish there were dual layer RW discs. Afaik some were made but they never hit the consumer market in the end
reply
htor 6 hours ago
I think what we are all really questioning about is: how many times can it be rewritten in Rust?
reply
Sharlin 4 hours ago
No, this is optical media, rewriting in rust only pertains to magnetic storage.
reply
xbar 2 hours ago
Thank you. Now I can rest easy knowing that my 500 stack of unused DVDRWs sitting in my cupboard that I got for so cheap at Fry's is going to last me the rest of my life.
reply
bsder 14 hours ago
IIRC, the issue was never how often the DVD-R/W could be rewritten.

The issue was the fact that everybody assumed that the DVD-R/W discs had roughly the same lifetime as actual DVDs and that turned out to be woefully incorrect.

reply
hrmtst93837 6 hours ago
The quality differences between DVD-RW brands and batches were huge, with some discs barely surviving ten rewrites while others managed many more. Exposure to heat or sunlight kills them quickly, even though they were not marketed as disposable. For real archival needs, options like M-DISC, tape, or cheap SSDs are more reliable than rewritable DVDs.
reply
tjoff 10 hours ago
People did? I thought that was common knowledge, as it also was for CDs. Not only that, compatibility with players were much worse.

Though there were times were RW discs cost as much as normal ones, and some friends of mine defaulted to buying RW even for stuff that was write once. I didn't get that, but for them the ability to, maybe, reuse the disc outweighed any reliability issues.

reply
karlgkk 12 hours ago
I didn’t know there was a rewritable dvd format. My dad had a bunch of dvds, I used to love sneaking one off to play on my computer when I was a kid, since he stopped noticing when he got into bluray
reply
primis 4 minutes ago
DVD±RW was super useful for passing around files in a period where flash drives were expensive. My high school photo journalism club used them a lot to pass around photos and documents, a couple days later they'd get ingested into the PC in the club room, erased, and put back on the pile for you to bring one home.

I don't ever think I had one fail to write

reply
Sharlin 4 hours ago
There was actually only a short period of time when only write-once DVDs existed. By 2005 just about any computer DVD drive you could buy supported all combinations of {CD,DVD}±{R,RW} that existed. Blank RW disks were, of course, more expensive than R's, though.
reply
giuliomagnifico 11 hours ago
Yes, they were present and not much expensive than standard ones. However, the issue was that they encountered problems/data loss after few rewrites.
reply
Sharlin 4 hours ago
Except that according TFA they can actually last thousands of rewrite cycles.
reply
giuliomagnifico 4 hours ago
Indeed, I posted it because my experience was different, perhaps due to my DVD writer or my settings. After 10- 15 rewrites, I almost always encountered issues
reply
baCist 12 hours ago
Very timely article! :)
reply
anal_reactor 9 hours ago
Really astounding dedication! And to be honest, I'm really surprised that DC Erase actually revived discs. Maybe the next step is to pick one disc, and keep using DC Erase, and see when it absolutely and totally fails?

When I was a kid I read that you can format DVD-RW in a way that makes Windows see it as a normal filesystem. The next step was "can you install a video game onto a disc?" and the answer was "nope, you cannot, at least not Lego Star Wars".

Also, there was a strange phenomenon that I'd love to see someone explain. I burned The Sims 2 onto CDs. The game worked. After some time the disc would fail at a file called voice1.package. I burned a second disc, which would again last some time, and then fail at the same exact file. I went through many discs, each one displaying the same behavior.

reply
cynicalsecurity 5 hours ago
Looks like a stale article from 2006.
reply
dimk95 7 hours ago
[dead]
reply
inquirerGeneral 15 hours ago
[dead]
reply