In Denmark, the spread of solar panels has become a divisive issue
50 points by PaulHoule 5 hours ago | 92 comments

jmward01 39 minutes ago
We are at a moment where we are finding more and more ways to integrate solar in. It is likely we will go 'too far' in some ways but hopefully over the next few decades we will see a lot more well integrated solutions like vertical panels complementing farming and solar integrated, potentially with lower efficiency but also less impact, into things like building surfaces and other non-traditional places. Getting a diversity of options out there, and iterating on them, is key to the next phase where solar is everywhere reasonable by default and well integrated in to daily life.
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iso1631 11 minutes ago
I live in the UK in a town of 10,000 people, so say 4,000 houses (probably far higher than there are). If every house had a 10kWp (way more than most installs) that would be 40MW generation.

On the outskirts of town we have a 40MW solar farm about the same size as the golf course. Most people have no idea it's there, it uses barely any land compared to the rest of farmland around here. That generates about 40GWh a year.

The cost of renting the land it's on each year is about £20k a year, or 50p per MWh, basically nothing. Land is effectively free compared to the value from "farming the sun", it's far cheaper than the scaffolding to put 8kWp on a roof

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SoftTalker 4 hours ago
Denmark is a poor location for solar. They are pretty far north and don't have a lot of sunny days that are good for solar generation. When they do, those peaks drive energy prices negative. From the article: Over the next 10 years, the official expectation is a very large rise in the amount of solar produced. But that kind of clashes with the reality on the ground – they can’t make money
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ninalanyon 23 minutes ago
Latitude is not everything. Oslo, which is further north than all of Denmark gets more insolation than Hamburg, which is further south than all of Denmark.

And don't forget that storage is getting cheaper so it will get more and more practical to save a some of that midday solar energy to be used in the evening.

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ZeroGravitas 3 hours ago
Far north places have long summer days. This doesn't align well with the winter heating needs but it does balance really well with wind generation which peaks in winter.
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fritzo 2 hours ago
If it's a poor location for photovoltaics, it's exactly as a poor for photosynthesis
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amarant 19 minutes ago
It's very seasonal for both. But we're currently better at storing wheat for 6 months than we are at storing electricity for a similar period.
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dathinab 4 hours ago
from the article which uses intentionally deceptive photography angles to paint a very different picture, yes

more interesting is, if that is actually true. Or only true because idk. the investors also bought the land and they profits are used to amortize the land buying cost etc.

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delusional 4 hours ago
That's a terrible argument on the face of it. "They can't make any energy, but also they make so much energy they can't use it all".

I actually live in Denmark, and we can produce solar energy just fine. My dad installed rooftop solar 10 years ago, and that thing has 90% of his electricity usage since then. It's still producing at around 85% capacity too.

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littlestymaar 2 hours ago
> that thing has 90% of his electricity usage

How is that supposed to work with cloudy days with barely 7 hours of daylight in winter?

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t-writescode 2 hours ago
Solar has always been a part of a wholistic strategy. We’ve known this ever since the sun went down at night and we had to compensate for it.
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detourdog 2 hours ago
In New England it works fine and we project 3 hours of production during the winter months. Not sure what Denmark’s latitude is, but 7 hours of production is not needed.
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littlestymaar 48 minutes ago
New England is Spain in terms of latitude.

Americans tend to forget how far north Europe is compared to the US.

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t-writescode 23 minutes ago
Great Britain, even more North, has viable solar on its Southern edge.
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danw1979 2 hours ago
I took a stroll recently through the countryside around Swindon, UK, where there’s a massive new solar farm on formerly arable land. One thing I only just realised was how the view from the ground is so badly affected when you’re down amidst the endless rows of panels - they reach well above head height.

It’s basically like walking through a industrial estate, just with more grass in between. Really very bleak.

Give me an onshore wind farm over this.

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teamonkey 56 minutes ago
Are you sure it’s arable land? The majority of solar farms in the UK are built on low-grade land that aren’t suitable for growing food.
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ghighi7878 54 minutes ago
Green grass is still good to look at.
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teamonkey 49 minutes ago
There is grass. Grass is allowed to grow around the panels. It’s great for biodiversity.
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simmerup 31 minutes ago
Climate change is an existential threat, it's switch to green power asap or burn the world our kids will live in
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carefree-bob 26 minutes ago
It's hysterical claims like this that cause so many problems for climate researchers and policy makers when the doomsday scenario fails to materialize. And then that's when you get newspaper clippings about the melting of the arctic sea ice by the year 2000 and everyone laughs and then discounts the whole thing.

Please don't do this. It is not an "existential threat" outside of various fundraising pamphlets and political organizations, and they exploit science for political gain at the cost of the credibility of the whole enterprise.

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card_zero 7 minutes ago
I've never been able to decide whether it is or not. I'm still vaguely scared of the clathrate gun, permafrost releasing extra CO2, and phytoplankton shrinking under ocean acidification so we can't have as much oxygen as we're accustomed to.
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simmerup 11 minutes ago
It is 100% an existential threat, but the existential bit happens in 100 years so of course you're not going to see it materialize over night
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JumpCrisscross 4 minutes ago
> It is 100% an existential threat, but the existential bit happens in 100 years

No, it’s not, and no, we don’t know that. Humans will survive climate change. Rich countries will survive, too.

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pjc50 30 minutes ago
How much extra on your electricity bill are you prepared to pay to not see it?
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Animats 56 minutes ago
Needs a beauty strip of trees around the panels.
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01HNNWZ0MV43FF 22 minutes ago
Most of the new solar farms do plant them, it just takes decades for trees to grow big enough to hide the panels

Personally I like the panels

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dylan604 31 minutes ago
Yeah, 'cause shade is precisely what's needed for a solar farm
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swsieber 26 minutes ago
Around, not over. Trees are a well studied thing where can you pick different species for different characteristics, like height, and growth speed.
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dylan604 7 minutes ago
TIL shadows from trees only project down directly under the tree and never project away from the tree itself. My entire life experience has been rendered useless.
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nitwit005 42 minutes ago
That just sounds like endless corn fields, only solar panels.
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jmyeet 4 minutes ago
You don't even have to go to the issue of climate change to defned this anymore. The far more relevant factor is the cost of energy as well as national security.

Europe as a whole has engaged in greenwashing where instead of really solving their emissions and energy problems has simply offshored those problems to poorer countries. If a neighbour uses fossil fuels for electricity generation and you buy their excess electrricity, you're not greener. You've just cooked the books.

People who might say "when I go outside at this very specific place solar panels look ugly" should carry no weight when those solar panels (in Denmark's case) covers 0.2% of rural land. Go somewhere else.

Unsurprisingly, China is leading here by making solar panel installations have multiple uses like reversing desertification and use vegetation growth from the shade and the water used to clean the panels as a place for grazing livestock. Obviously Europe in general and Denmark in particular doesn't have deserts, of course.

I'm generally a fan of putting solar panels on non-arable land. In the US, that's much of the southwest, which incidentally also has very good solar yields because of the high amount of sunshine. There are whole areas of grass plains that can't be used for traditional farming as we discovered in the 1930s. It was called the Dust Bowl. There was a famous book written about it (ie the Grapes of Wrath).

What I don't understand is why we don't build more solar around or over highways. This is already public land and it's land not doing anything else. The solar wouldn't interfere with the core purpose either. I guess people want solar panels tucked away where few can see them.

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mikaeluman 5 hours ago
The dirty secret is of course that the Danish power grid would be totally unusable without the base power provided from Sweden and Norway.

They almost suffered a catastrophic shutdown a year or two ago and the situation has not improved

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ethan_smith 4 hours ago
The Nordic grid was designed to work as an interconnected system though - Danish wind exports and Norwegian/Swedish hydro imports balance each other out. Calling it a "dirty secret" makes it sound like a failure when it's actually the intended architecture. Denmark is frequently a net electricity exporter.
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ceejayoz 5 hours ago
Is that really a "dirty secret"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_Europe_Synchronous... exists for good reason.

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tensor 4 hours ago
The power grids of US states are similarly linked. Very dirty.
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crooked-v 4 hours ago
Except for Texas, which decided as a state that avoiding federal regulation was worth people dying every winter from power outages.
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karamanolev 4 hours ago
I'm not a fan of Texan electrical isolationism, but "people dying every winter from power outages" is stretching it a bit...
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ceejayoz 4 hours ago
Every winter is a stretch, yes.

But they did get a big warning shot in 1989 and 2011, and ignored those lessons for cost reasons. A couple hundred people died.

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amarant 16 minutes ago
Which actually works out to rather more than one person per winter, when averaged out.
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matthewdgreen 4 hours ago
That's like pointing out that Rhode Island isn't designed to be a self-sufficient grid.
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tensor 5 hours ago
The only dirty secret is that humans are happy to kill future generations as the effects of the oil economy will only minimally affect the people alive today.
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codebolt 4 hours ago
[flagged]
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gritzko 4 hours ago
Lived there. Baltic weather, not too sunny. Must be a great place for wind generation though.
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ahartmetz 4 hours ago
The world's largest wind power company, Vestas, is from Denmark.
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darth_avocado 4 hours ago
This would’ve been a non issue if human beings worked together as a species, but we don’t. There is plenty of space on the planet where no one lives and nothing thrives that could be converted massive solar farms that power the planet.
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SoftTalker 4 hours ago
Transmitting that energy from where nobody lives to where people do live becomes the problem with that.
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ninalanyon 19 minutes ago
The only real problems with long distance electricity transmission are political and to a lesser extent financial. Technically it is solved problem.

The Desertec project could have turned a relatively small patch of Libyan desert into a solar farm that could supply all of Europe's electricity except that politics makes it impossible.

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jmward01 33 minutes ago
I've been watching the math of batteries and cargo ships and we may not be too far from shipping electrons generated in the Sahara to the UK and Europe at a reasonable price. That totally changes the game if you have cargo ships moving to where the power will be needed. I can imagine these ships going to where the weather is predicted to cause an issue to help even out the grid and just in general creating a responsive base load for the world. It sounds like sci-fi, but with the direction batteries have gone it isn't that crazy anymore.
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etiam 8 minutes ago
Does it still work out if you take into account the insurance premiums for a cargo ship stacked with batteries? Can't imagine the fire hazard is pretty.
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darth_avocado 4 hours ago
> Transmitting that energy from where nobody lives to where people do live becomes the problem with that.

That’s kind of what we do today for pretty much everything. Most of the population on the planet doesn’t live near oil rigs, refineries, solar farms, power plants or wind. In fact most of the population doesn’t live near where we produce our food or most of the things we need for survival.

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Sharlin 4 hours ago
Building HVDC lines from North Africa to Europe, for example, wouldn't be a huge feat of civil engineering. Rather standard stuff, really.
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ninalanyon 15 minutes ago
Spain and Morocco already have a 1.4 GW DC interconnect and the XLinks project intends to connect Morocco and the UK.
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dathinab 3 hours ago
we don't need something that long distance at all

EU has enough areas with sparse population and not that much nature which also are south enough to have it work out well with solar panels of the current generations.

And besides that even most EU countries have enough places in them to still put a lot of solar panels without much issues and/or replacing fields.

going as far as North Africa is a bit too far to be convenient for power transport

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ceejayoz 3 hours ago
"from North Africa to Europe" is, to be clear, ~9 miles in spots.
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ahartmetz 4 hours ago
It could possibly be combined with a solution to the storage problem: store the energy in some transportable chemical form like hydrogen, methane or the electrolyte of a redox flow battery.
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SoftTalker 4 hours ago
Yeah possibly. Synthetic hydrocarbon fuel that's already compatible with transportation infrastructure and energy consumers might be the best bet.
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dathinab 4 hours ago
in the distances we speak about we do so all the time with more centralized energy sources (like e.g. nuklear) due to their centralized nature

the issue is less the transport distances but changes in "from where to where" sometimes needing some extensions/improvements to the power grid. Through commonly in ways which anyway make sense and all pretty much "standard" solutions well understood. Through there are some more complicated exceptions to that.

EDIT: "distances we speak about" assumed less many local less dense populate/suitable spots across the EU, not a mega project like a energy pipeline from North Afrika.

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TimorousBestie 4 hours ago
Buckmister Fuller envisioned a worldwide high-voltage transmission network implemented with 1980’s technology, there just isn’t the worldwide political will or cooperation to build it.
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moffers 4 hours ago
We work together pretty well. From a 20,000 foot level maybe it looks like chaos and like a central guiding hand would make everything better. But, two people working together is easier to direct than 100,000 people (or more!). Unpacking this gives us the wonders of the economics and behavioral psychology. I’d say, all things considered, we could be doing a hell of a lot worse on cooperation with each other.
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dathinab 4 hours ago
look at satellite images of Denmark or the village in question

- that village is the exception, not the norm at all

- that village is in a "small" (on agricultural scale) strip of solar panels, around which there are green fields over green fields over green field ....

- the photos are deceptive, the first is from the start of the strip to the end and contains the huge majority of all solar panels in like a 50km? 100km? radius. The second photo does not show the village but a separate house up the street, if the photo where in a bit more flat angle you would see a normal filed behind the solar panels. The village itself has a "strip" of (small) green fields around it which should make it less bad to live there.

I mean don't get me wrong it probably sucks for the home owners in Hjolderup. But it's not representative for the situation in Denmark at all.

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aaronbrethorst 4 hours ago
One interesting detail about Denmark's renewable energy infrastructure mix is that Vestas, the largest wind turbine manufacturer in the world, is a cornerstone of Danish industry. Note in the article that wind supplies about 40% of Denmark's electrical needs, and that the populist right party mentioned in the article doesn't attack wind turbines, despite the antipathy that other (supposedly populist) rightwing figures do in other countries.
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dev_l1x_be 53 minutes ago
Energy density is a real problem.
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dathinab 4 hours ago
not buying that this isn't anti renewable propaganda for the US

the images in the article looks bad

until you take a short look at satellite images and realize:

- it's not the norm but the exception

- the photos are made to make it look maximally bad in a deceptive/manipulative way,

and that is even in context, that Denmark is a special case in that it both quite small and has little "dead" (not agriculturally efficiently usable land). And many old "culturally" protected houses where fitting solar on top of it is far more complicated/inefficient. Don't get me wrong it isn't the only special case, but there are very many countries which don't really have such issues.

Also quite interestingly this "iron fields" can be "not bad" from a nature perspective, at least compared to mono-culture with pesticide usage. Due to the plant and animal live below them. Through that is assuming people do extra steps to prevent that live.

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ZeroGravitas 4 hours ago
There is an art to taking pictures of solar farms from exactly the right angle so that the panels seem continuous, often making use of deep shadows to cover the gaps.

It's similar to the telephoto shots of wind farms taken from far away that make them seem really close together.

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mellosouls 4 hours ago
"not buying that this isn't anti renewable propaganda for the US"

Its the Guardian so that is a very unlikely motivation.

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Arn_Thor 4 hours ago
_Something_ motivates them, though. They have been on a wild anti-solar bend the last year or more. Dozens of articles, all with the same anti-solar NIMBY bent
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zipy124 2 hours ago
The guardian have previously been found to generate a significant amount of ad revenue from fossil fuel companies. They aren't politically aligned with it, but are financially. Remember that a large portion of the left in the UK are also anti-solar since they are pro-green nature and they have yet to make a choice on this.

P.s I am pro renewable and pro-solar/wind/nuclear just to clarify that this is nothing about my personal beliefs.

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signatoremo 10 minutes ago
Cite your source. The Guardian stopped accepting ads from the fossil industry 6 years ago - [0]

It is convenient to be suspicious against news that isn’t aligned with your views.

[0] - https://www.theguardian.com/help/insideguardian/2020/jan/29/...

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lukeify 54 minutes ago
> - it's not the norm but the exception

I bet makes the person dealing with the outcome of being surrounded by them feel a lot better.

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zolland 4 hours ago
The satellite photos of Hjolderup look worse than the photos in the article to me... the photos in the article seem like a fair representation of the consequences of installing solar fields like this--your house and town end up surrounded by solar panels.
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mort96 4 hours ago
I can't even read it because you either have to accept all tracking or pay a subscription fee. Pretty sure that's against the GDPR? Anyway, not a good look.
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masfuerte 41 minutes ago
It works fine with js disabled.
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soco 4 hours ago
Isn't GDPR an EU thing?
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mort96 4 hours ago
Well an EU/EEA thing. And I'm in the EEA, so it applies when I visit The Guardian.
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testing22321 4 hours ago
100%

It also presents the draw man that solar can only go in huge fields that would otherwise grow food.

There are plenty of rooftops and car parks that can be covered in solar to excellent benefit.

Ie https://www.eventplanner.net/news/10582_largest-solar-carpor...

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ddellacosta 4 hours ago
> It also presents the draw man that solar can only go in huge fields that would otherwise grow food.

> There are plenty of rooftops and car parks that can be covered in solar to excellent benefit.

It's worth calling this approach out too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agrivoltaics

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dathinab 3 hours ago
and field which have been damaged due to overuse and incorrect handling and preferable shouldn't be used for the next ~50 year
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Arn_Thor 4 hours ago
The Guardian continues its anti-solar crusade. For some inexplicable reason
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Aldipower 49 minutes ago
So, looking on things from another angle is called "a crusade" nowadays. Yep, it is like it is.
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pfdietz 4 hours ago
Northern Europe really is the energy armpit of the post-fossil world, although more so away from coasts.
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Flavius 4 hours ago
We currently use vast amounts of land growing corn and other crops specifically for biodiesel. Solar panels produce over 100x more energy per hectare than corn ethanol, even in countries like Denmark with limited sunlight. It makes perfect sense to repurpose some biofuel farmland for solar panels. That's just efficient land use, not an attack on agriculture.
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dathinab 3 hours ago
> corn and other crops specifically for biodiesel.

honestly that always sounded very misguided to me

fields are not perfectly renewable, biomas gets removed from them and fertilizers can only help so much in any given time frame

mostly corn/raps mono-culture can make that easily far worse

and not needing to import food can safe a lot of energy too

also as you mentioned, modern solar panels seem overall more efficient

in difference to solar or wind, biodiesel just seem a very bad choice

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chvid 4 hours ago
Denmark has undergone the same sort of right wing populism that has gone through most of the west. Including rhetorical tricks like this.

Though the recent election is slight swing to the left, and the newly created right wing parties are already undergoing various forms of internal meltdowns, making a center left government friendly green energy projects most likely.

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OutOfHere 4 hours ago
Denmark could use floating sea solar.
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dathinab 3 hours ago
if there where an issue yes,

but it doesn't look like there actually is a major issues. A look at satellite images it looks more like a problem for a handful of people across all of Denmark which then is misrepresented by populist, to push anti-solar propaganda.

(Oh, and we don't even know how much the people in Hjolderup do resent it. Like seriously, they might even have put the solar panels there them-self to make money, idk.. Because conveniently the article shows pictures of Hjolderup to invoke a felling of how terrible it is, but never any interviews or options with anyone _from_ Hjolderup. )

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karmakurtisaani 4 hours ago
Yes to progress, no to cheap right-wing populism with no real solutions to any problem. How about that?
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doctorpangloss 5 hours ago
everything that goes into real life is an aesthetic experience. it's not complicated. imo, you can either literally hide things from the public, or aesthetic concerns, like whether or not a piece of infrastructure's exterior is physically beautiful & attractive, becomes the #1 priority.
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ls612 4 hours ago
Regardless of your political beliefs I would hope you could agree that using arable land for solar power is dumb. Denmark is almost entirely arable land and relatively small to boot so they should be using more compact power sources.
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lukeify 53 minutes ago
Agreed. I'm very pro-solar but there should be incentives for residential solar and solar on commercial buildings first. Covering up farmland and natural environments should be a last resort.
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sophacles 17 minutes ago
Why would I agree to such a stupid position?

Here in the us we could swap acres of corn used only for ethanol production for acres of solar panels that produce a 100x more power annually.

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l5870uoo9y 2 hours ago
The absurdity of the climate debate is that “we” talk almost constantly about two energy sources (wind and solar) that in no way have the potential to provide the stable baseload power required to electrify society. And unless nature has blessed your country with abundant geothermal or hydroelectric power, that leaves you with the following options: oil, coal, or nuclear power.
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rickydroll 42 minutes ago
The addition of batteries as an intermittent power source brings us closer to 100% renewable energy and allows us to incrementally decommission dirty plants, such as coal- and oil-fired plants.

The design goal of adding a battery to grid power sources is to capture energy that would otherwise be lost when demand is lower than generation. In addition to capturing excess production of wind or solar-derived energy, one could capture unused energy from our current baseload generating plants overnight. We could also, this would also let us capture the energy that would otherwise be wasted by unnecessary nighttime lighting.

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recursive 40 minutes ago
Wind and solar can provide enough energy. You may be referring to their well-publicized variability. Energy storage can solve that.
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