* harness design
* small models (both local and not)
I think there is tremendous low hanging fruit in both areas still.
The US has a problem of too much money leading to wasteful spending.
If we go back to the 80s/90s, remember OS/2 vs Windows. OS/2 had more resources, more money behind it, more developers, and they built a bigger system that took more resources to run.
Mac vs Lisa. Mac team had constraints, Lisa team didn't.
Unlimited budgets are dangerous.
Can you elaborate on this? Is this something that companies would train themselves?
Basically a clever wrapper around the Anthropic / OpenAI / whatever provider api or local inference calls.
> Users should re-tune their prompts and harnesses accordingly.
I read this in the press release and my mind thought it meant test harness. Then there was a blog post about long running harnesses with a section about testing which lead me to a little more confusion.
Yes, the word 'harness' is consistently used in the context as a wrapper around the LLM model not as 'test harness'.
I thought there'd been a shortage of cheap GPUs since ChatGPT took off and also before that in various crypto booms. I'm not sure it's a new thing.
It's one thing to "sell" free or symbolically cheap stuff, it's another to have an actual client who will do the math and compare expenditure vs actually delivered value.
Whoever running and selling their own models with inference is invested into the last dime available in the market.
Those valuations are already ridiculously high be it Anthropic or OpenAI to the tune of couple of trillion dollars easily if combind.
All that investment is seeking return. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Developers and software companies are the only serious users because they (mostly) review output of these models out of both culture and necessity.
Anywhere else? Other fields? There these models aren't any useful or as useful while revenue from software companies by no means going to bring returns to the trillion dollar valuations. Correct me if I'm wrong.
To make the matter worst, there's a hole in the bucket in form of open weight models. When squeezed further, software companies would either deploy open weight models or would resort to writing code by hand because that's a very skilled and hardworking tribe they've been doing this all their lives, whole careers are built on that. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Eventually - ROI might not be what VCs expect and constant losses might lead to bankruptcies and all that build out of data centers all of sudden would be looking for someone to rent that compute capacity result of which would be dime a dozen open weight model providers with generous usage tiers to capitalize on that available compute capacity owners of which have gone bankrupt and can't use it any more wanting to liquidate it as much as possible to recoup as much investment as possible.
EDIT: Typos
Anthropic's is far more reasonable.
It makes no sense to lump these two companies together when talking about valuation. They have completely different financial dynamics
I onboarded marketing on a premium team Claude seat yesterday. And one of our sales vibecoded an internal tool in the last three weeks using Claude Code that they now use every day. I wouldn’t have imagined it a month ago. We still had to take care of deployment for him, but things are moving fast.
Note - this is just the revenue not the profit. No salaries, no compute paid for. Just plain revenue. Profit would be way less.
But even that - if we take it to $24 billion/year and we take a 10x multiple, the company is barely valued at $240 billon dollar, lets be generous and make it double at $480 billion and then round it up to $500 billion for a nice round number.
Far far from the $800 billion valuation Anthropic is looking at.
Only a matter of time.
EDIT: Fixed math
Years, is like a lifetime for AI at this point...
This is true of nearly everything (except money). I'm not sure of the point you are trying to make.
What does this mean? I didn't understand the analogy.
For instance, at some point, could Coreweave field a frontier team as it holds back 10% of its allocations over time? Pretty unusual situation.
(note: I don't expect this to actually happen until the AI gets good enough to either nearly entirely replace humans or solve cooperation, but the long term trend of scarce AI will go towards that direction)
Open Weight models are 6 months to a year behind SOTA. If you were building a company a year ago based on what AI could do then, you can build a company today with models that run locally on a user's computer. Yes that may mean requiring your customers to buy Macbooks or desktops with Nvidia GPUs, but if your product actually improves productivity by any reasonable amount, that purchase cost is quickly made up for.
I'll argue that for anything short of full computer control or writing code, the latest Qwen model will do fine. Heck you can get a customer service voice chat bot running in 8GB of VRAM + a couple gigs more for the ASR and TTS engine, and it'll be more powerful than the hundreds of millions spent on chat bots that were powered by GPT 4.x.
This is like arguing the age of personal computing was over because there weren't enough mainframes for people to telnet into.
It misses the point. Yes deployment and management of personal PCs was a lot harder than dumb terminal + mainframe, but the future was obvious.
I'd be surprised if it isn't true for your use cases. If you give GLM-5.1 and Optus 4.6 the same coding task, they will both produce code that passes all the tests. In both cases the code will be crap, as no model I've seen produces good code. GLM-5.1 is actually slightly better at following instructions exactly than Optus 4.6 (but maybe not 4.7 - as that's an area they addressed).
I've asked GLM-5.1 and Opus 4.6 to find a bug caused by a subtle race condition (the race condition leads to a number being 15172580 instead of 15172579 after about 3 months of CPU time). Both found it, in a similar amount of time. Several senior engineers had stared at the code for literally days and didn't find it.
There is no doubt the models do vary in performance at various tasks, but we are talking the difference between Ferrari vs Mercedes in F1. While the differences are undeniable, this isn't the F1. Things take a year to change there. The performance of the models from Anthropic and OpenAI literally change day by day, often not due to the model itself but because of the horsepower those companies choose to give them on the day, or them tweaking their own system prompts. You can find no end of posts here from people screaming in frustration the thing that worked yesterday doesn't work today, or suddenly they find themselves running out of tokens, or their favoured tool is blocked. It's not at all obvious the differences between the open-source models and the proprietary ones are worse than those day to day ones the proprietary companies inflict on us.
I'm wondering if you have actually used claude code because results are not so catastrophic as you describe them.
if (foo == NULL) {
log_the_error(...);
goto END;
}
END:
free(foo);
But that's the least of it. The models (all of them) are absolutely hopeless at DRY'ing out the code, and when they do turn it into spaghetti because they seem almost oblivious to isolation boundaries, even when they are spelt out to them.
None of this is a problem if you are vibe coding, but you can only do that when you're targeting a pretty low quality level. That's entirely appropriate in some cases of course, but when it isn't you need heavy reviews from skilled programmers. No senior engineer is going to stomach the repeated stretches of almost the "same but not quite" code they churn out.
You don't have to take my word for it. Try asking Google "do llm's produce verbose code".
`free(NULL)` is harmless in C89 onwards. As I said, programmers freeing NULL caused so many issues they changed the API. It doesn't help that `malloc(0)` returns NULL on some platforms.
If you are writing code for an embedded platform with some random C compiler, all bets on what `free(NULL)` does are off. That means a cautious C programmer who doesn't know who will be using their code never allows NULL to be passed to `free()`.
In general, most good C programmers are good because they suffer a sort of PTSD from the injuries the language has inflicted on them in the past. If they aren't avoiding passing NULL to `free()`, they haven't suffered long enough to be good.
I always found myself writing verbose copypasta code first, then compress it down based on the emerging commonalities. I think doing it the other way around is likely to lead to a worse design. Can you not tell the LLM to do the same? Honest question.
I do pretty much the same thing, which is to say I "write code using a brain dump", "look for commonalities that tickle the neurons", then "refactor". Lather, rinse, and repeat until I'm happy.
> Can you not tell the LLM to do the same?
You can tell them until you're blue in the face. They ignore you.
I'm sure this is a temporary phase. Once they solve the problem, coding will suffer the same fate as blacksmiths making nails. [0] To solve it they need to satisfy two conflicting goals - DRY the code out, while keeping interconnections between modules to a minimum. That isn't easy. In fact it's so hard people who do it well and can do it across scales are called senior software engineers. Once models master that trick, they won't be needed any more.
By "they" I mean "me".
[0] Blacksmiths could produce 1,000 or so a day, but it must have been a mind-numbing day even if it paid the bills. Then automation came along, and produced them at over a nail per second.
Write code? No. Use frontier models. They are subsidized and amazing and they get noticably better ever few months.
Literally anything else? Smaller models are fine. Classifiers, sentiment analysis, editing blog posts, tool calling, whatever. They go can through documents and extract information, summarize, etc. When making a voice chat system awhile back I used a cheap open weight model and just asked it "is the user done speaking yet" by passing transcripts of what had been spoken so far, and this was 2 years ago and a crappy cheap low weight model. Be creative.
I wouldn't trust them to do math, but you can tool call out to a calculator for that.
They are perfectly fine at holding conversations. Their weights aren't large enough to have every book ever written contained in them, or the details of every movie ever made, but unless you need that depth and breadth of knowledge, you'll be fine.
Open weight models have those same issues. They are otherwise fine.
You can hook them up to a vector DB and build a RAG system. They can answer simple questions and converse back and forth. They have thinking modes that solve more complex problems.
They aren't going to discover new math theorems but they'll control a smart home and manage your calendar.
It remains to be seen what new wave of AI system or systems will replace it, making the whole current architecture obsolete.
Meanwhile, they are milking it, in the name of scarcity.
Also - turbine blades limit power, according to Elon.
Between them - we cannot chip fabs past a certain rate, and we cannot stand up the datacenter to run these desired chips past a certain rate. Different people believe one or the other is the 'true' current bottleneck. The turbine supply chain scaling looks much more tractable -- EUV is essentially the most complicated production process humans have ever devised.
- clean room, itself needing the infrastructure for it (size, airCo, filtering, electricity) and the staff to run and maintain that basically empty space - wafers to "print" on, so that's a lot of water and logistic to manipulate them (so infrastructure for clean water and all chemicals) also with dedicated staff - finally staff who would be able to design something significantly better than NVIDIA, Intel, Broadcom, IBM, etc while (and arguably that's the trickiest part IMHO) being able to get it good enough as at a scale that can be manufactured from their own fab.
so I'm wondering who can afford this kind of setup that can only then make use of ASML machines.
If I am a grocery store that pays $1 for oranges and sells them for $0.50, I can't say, "I don't have enough oranges."
'If I am a grocery store that pays $1 for oranges and sells them for $0.50, I can't say, "I don't have enough oranges."'
How about 'if I'm a grocery store and I see no limit on demand for oranges at $.50 but they are currently $1, I can say 'if oranges were cheaper I could sell orders of magnitude more of them'.
Buying oranges for $1 and selling for $0.5 is an investment into acquiring market share and customer relationships and a gamble on the price of oranges falling in the future.
"I built a ship to go to the Indies and bring back tea."
"Bro, the ship cost 100,000 pounds sterling and only brought back 50,000 pounds of tea. I don't care if you paid 12,500 pounds for the tea itself, you're losing money."
There is a very rational reason labs are spending everything they can get for more compute right now. The tea (inference) pays 60%+ margins. And that is rising. And that number is AFTER hyper scalars make their margins. There is an immense amount of profit floating around this system, and strategics at the edge believing they can build and control the demand through combined spend on training and inference in the proper ratios.
Could they be accurate? Sure, I think people who claim this is impossible are overconfident. But I would encourage anyone who assumes they must be right to read a history of the Worldcom scandal. It's really quite easy for a person who wants to be making money (or an LLM who's been instructed to "run the accounts make no mistakes"!) to incorrectly categorize costs as capital investments when nobody's watching carefully.
One person replies "yes". Another replies "no".
This concludes our press conference.
<3 HN
There is a 2-3years still before ASIC LLM inferences will catch up.
It won't make sense for ASIC LLMs to manifest until things start to plateau, otherwise it'll be cheaper to get smarter tokens on the cloud for almost all use cases.
That said, a 10 trillion parameter model on a bespoke compute platform overcomes a lot of efficiency and FOOM aspects of the market fit, so the angle is "when will models that can be run on an asic be good enough that people will still want them for various things even if the frontier models are 10x smarter and more efficient"
I think we're probably a decade of iteration on LLMs out, at least, and the entire market could pivot if the right breakthrough happens - some GPT-2 moment demonstrating some novel architecture that convinces the industry to make the move could happen any time now.
Its like being back in 1850 and you build the world's first amusement park where the rides are free or very cheap. People are like Amusement parks are the next big thing since Steam Boats! And tons of other rich people start to build huge amusement parks everywhere. The people who are skilled at making amusement park rides will increase their prices, and since the first amusement parks are free so they can get the public going to them demand will be huge.
But how sustainable is that? - well obviously we know from history that amusement parks did, in fact, take over the world and most people spent virtually all their time and money at amusement parks - I think the Crimean War was even fought over some religious-based theme park in Israel - until moving pictures came out, so it worked out for them, but for AI?
1. Supply can scale. You can point to COVID/supply-chain shocks, but the problem there is temporary changes. No one spins up a whole fab to address a 3 month spike. Whereas AI is not a temporary demand change.
2. Models are getting more efficient. DeepSeek V3 was 1/10th the cost of contemporary ChatGPT. Open weight models get more runnable or smarter every month. Cutting edge is always cutting edge, but if scarcity is real, model selection will adjust to fit it.
The companies that are entirely AI-dependent may need to raise prices dramatically as AI prices go up. Not being dependent on LLMs for your fundamental product’s value will be a major advantage, at least in pricing.
It's similar to how if you know what you're doing you can manage a simple VPS and scale a lot more cost effectively than something like vercel.
In a saturated market margins are everything. You can't necessarily afford to be giving all your margins to anthropic and vercel.
Hyperscalers are spending a fortune so we think AI = API, but renting intelligence is a business model, not a technical inevitability.
Shameless link to my post on this: https://mjeggleton.com/blog/AIs-mainframe-moment
This is the “Building my entire livelihood on Facebook, oh no what?” all over again.
Oh no sorry I forgot, your laptops LLM can draw a potato, let me invest in you.
It's just another instance of cloud dependency, and people should've learned something from that over the last two decades.