Traders placed over $1B in perfectly timed bets on the Iran war
118 points by trocado 4 hours ago | 86 comments

beaviskhan 3 hours ago
You'd have to be spectacularly stupid to bet on these kinds of things without having insider knowledge, because you ought to know good and damn well by now that the people with insider knowledge are DEFINITELY betting on them.
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3eb7988a1663 3 hours ago
Even if you are not "betting" similar trades are happening in the stock market as well. Large movements in oil futures shortly before policy changes are announced.
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agumonkey 3 hours ago
considering the scale involved, and the OSINT trend, is it possible that people could monitor and correlate stuff like airplane, or us navy activity to deduce when to enter ?
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nathancahill 3 hours ago
I saw a tweet about a trader placing an oil bet when they saw two military aircraft turn around on their way to Iran, via transponder. I believe before the deal was announced.
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3eb7988a1663 2 hours ago
That also sounds easy enough to fake for some plausible deniability.
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huorricannes 7 minutes ago
in fact US army publicly admitting running a disinformation campaign involving flying planes knowing they would be seen by osint in the previous Iran attack from last summer
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paulpauper 3 hours ago
couldn't you somehow in theory track the order book to if and when insiders are betting and then copy the trade?
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andrepd 3 hours ago
Not knowing who are the insiders and who is the dumb flow is like the fundamental problem of hft
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cout 20 minutes ago
In theory that is part of what was supposed to have been solved by CAT.
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iknowSFR 3 hours ago
You can trade on non-public information if you obtain that information unintentionally. Now you have to be able to prove it’s unintentional if the question came up. A real experience example of this is if you work in an office building and your neighboring company, a public company, is being raided by the FBI. Can you use that information to take a position in the market? Yes, according to multiple attorneys we spoke with.

I bring this up because we assume the trading is coming from insiders but I wonder if the parties behind this have baked in a layer similar to my story above.

To close this back to your comment, and I don’t have an answer here: is knowing who the insiders are and acting on that a crime? If you did know and didn’t report them, are you breaking a law? Or worse, you reported it to the deaf ears of a regulator that are focused elsewhere or are under resourced to respond now?

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huorricannes 25 minutes ago
intentionally/unintentionally is not relevant.

it's legal to follow FBI cars and see who they raid so as to make trades. you could even have a hedge fund specialized on this. it's called alternative data

you can even be a regular employer of a public company and trade based on information sent on internal emails.

the only thing illegal is to be a designated insider - typically a restricted group of people with access to sensitive information

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JumpCrisscross 15 minutes ago
> you can even be a regular employer of a public company and trade based on information sent on internal emails

You absolutely cannot.

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3eb7988a1663 3 hours ago
How is there enough volume to cover the other side of the bet with these minutes-before trades?
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andrepd 2 hours ago
The oil market is, to put it mildly, fucking huge
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JumpCrisscross 16 minutes ago
> oil market is, to put it mildly, fucking huge

Sure. But these aren't trades in "the oil market." They're bets on Polymarket and a specific oil-futures exchange.

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3eb7988a1663 2 hours ago
For sure, the real trading markets are huge. I mean the betting platforms.
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huorricannes 22 minutes ago
the betting markets offset positions with the real markets. it's all connected
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JumpCrisscross 16 minutes ago
> betting markets offset positions with the real markets

Need a strong source for this. The size (and regulatory) disconnect between the two would seem to make making markets in both a bit silly.

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OutOfHere 2 hours ago
Are you implying that there is arbitrage between the prediction market and the real market? Until now we were assuming that the prediction market is self-contained, with its other side staying within the confines of the prediction market.
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huorricannes 21 minutes ago
the other side can and many times is an arbitrageour which has positions in both the prediction market and the real market
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georgemcbay 3 hours ago
For prediction markets you can find out who the insiders are for different categories over time, see for example:

https://x.com/peterjliu/status/2024901585806225723

But there is still the problem of knowing which new trades the insiders made before the bet is settled (maybe solved by being an insider of the prediction market), and also since prediction markets need money on both sides (you are betting against other people, not the 'house') when the insiders make their buy they probably eat up most of or all of the action on the other side.

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bluecalm 2 hours ago
Same goes for sport betting and yet here we are. People like to bet. They willingly bet on things they have guaranteed disadvantage on (casino games like roulette, slots etc.). People also drink pure poison (alcohol), smoke pure poison (cigarettes) and engage in brain dead activities like speeding and street racing.

Gambling should be judged as any other vice - people get something out of it (rush, hope, whatever) not by rational money allocation standards.

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outlore 2 hours ago
There’s a recent Patrick Boyle video which puts it aptly: prediction markets are a wealth transfer from retail investors to trading algorithms and people with security clearances.

Anyway, one thing I don’t understand yet is how new markets are created. They aren’t user generated, so how did an “Iran strike” market exist to begin with?

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1659447091 42 minutes ago
> one thing I don’t understand yet is how new markets are created. They aren’t user generated, so how did an “Iran strike” market exist to begin with?

Having the US presidents kids as multimillion dollar investors in the platforms and on the advisory board of one them would be a good place to look

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int32_64 26 minutes ago
It's deeply American how so many of these articles about Kalshi or Polymarket frame the issue as something that can be solved on the American end with the stroke of a pen, especially in a multipolar world where American sanctions increasingly fail.

These markets are global with global demand and many of the insiders are on the receiving end of American foreign policy. If an Iranian with a starlink sees a b-2 spirit fly over their house that information will find its way to somebody who will profit from that knowledge, it's just part of the new information economy.

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JumpCrisscross 20 minutes ago
> especially in a multipolar world where American sanctions increasingly fail

You're claiming the U.S. government is impotent against holding Polymarket to account?

> These markets are global

The trades in question are bets on Polymarket and Intercontinental Exchange Brent oil futures. These are well within the remit of American law enforcement.

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reenorap 3 hours ago
Without them talking about how much people LOST, this entire article is meaningless. With the advent of 0DTE options which dominate options trading, the fact that the notional number of people who made money makes sense because so many more people have lost money.
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jfrbfbreudh 2 hours ago
Yes, someone is on the other side of the losing trade, but how many people (not firms) do you know who write contracts for short term options?

I personally don’t know any, and I worked at one of the biggest HFT firms for a few years.

The losing side(s) of these positions are heavily hedged, and are happily making money on volume and volatility. (And making record profits this year)

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watwut 3 hours ago
Of course they made money from other traders. But that is precisedly the issue with insider trading - you are taking money from more honest traders.
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reactordev 3 hours ago
Prediction Markets require insider trading to function... how do people not know this? It's a setup from day one. If you have the knowledge, you're going to cash in, if you don't have the knowledge, you are throwing your money away.
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firebot 3 hours ago
Most gamblers prescribe to the cost sunk fallacy and keep 'one more time'ing it to bankruptcy.

Math wins over your feels every time.

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OutOfHere 2 hours ago
If you follow your math, such gambling losers don't really have that much money to bet on an ongoing basis. The ones who support the losing side on prediction markets are the ones who usually do fine, but sometimes are taken by surprise.
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bigfatkitten 24 minutes ago
Problem gamblers routinely take out loans, mortgage major assets, max out credit cards, and steal from their employers to fund their habits.
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casey2 2 hours ago
Statcon 101: Gambling addicts take loans to gamble, those loans are sold to your pension fund. Who is the loser?
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UncleMeat 3 hours ago
I've never seen an ad from either Kalshi or Polymarket that says "don't play if you aren't an insider."
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jjav 3 hours ago
The game only works if they also have a lot of people losing money.
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b0Ringmth 24 minutes ago
Yeah just another Ponzi scheme; one sided extraction with a slight chance of payout that never comes

Stephen Miller and Charlie Kirk were pretty clear their sides whole philosophy is take and never give back. They learned it was OK not from their parents but gen pop sitting on their hands.

The entire economy is Las Vegas now; only the (white) house wins

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DANmode 3 hours ago
potentially, each time.
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yalogin 39 minutes ago
It’s all manipulation and everyone knows it but when the voices are coming from inside the house, who’s going to investigate? If anything every tech company in the whole flow is going to support and add custom flows for them - “to get on their good side”
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Stevvo 35 minutes ago
These articles always focus on "Yes" bets. An insider betting "No" might get by completely unnoticed.
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tezza 10 minutes ago
Wait until they find out how many people place perfectly timed horse racing bets on the winning horse, JUST before the start of the race. 100% of them knew to back the winning horse
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mrtksn 3 hours ago
I wonder if this means that in a true free market betting is actually impossible as extra-gaming structures like those spontaneously emerge.

You need centralized regulation to make it work.

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mananaysiempre 3 hours ago
The standard argument for prediction markets does not include any kind of fairness in gambling. Rather, the point is precisely to surface insider or otherwise well-founded knowledge of the real odds so they can be available to anyone who wishes to look at the price.

(And I do not see how this first-order viewpoint is problematic, precisely. It’s the second-order consequences of people making the currently-considered-unlikely decision in order to cash in on a bet that I have an issue with.)

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ck2 3 hours ago
What's the statute of limitations on such things?

Because it won't be prosecuted by 2029 but could be afterwards

Personally I think it's a bigger problem when the President sues his own government for billions and then orders them to pay it out

Because -that- is not an official act. It could be prosecuted but no-one will touch it even after 2029

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cbg0 3 hours ago
Unless somebody snitches there's no real way to prosecute insider trading. You can say you just felt like making a trade, or that you read one of Trump's posts the moment he put it up on Truth Social and you just happened to have the trade ready to go.

Unless they're absolute morons, the people doing insider trading for large sums of money will have already built a strong alibi.

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JumpCrisscross 17 minutes ago
> Unless somebody snitches there's no real way to prosecute insider trading. You can say you just felt like making a trade

If you have perfect opsec, sure, you'll just waste a few years and hundreds of thousands of dollars in court. If you texted a friend, or told a friend who then texted a friend, or traded too soon to receiving privileged information, you're probably fucked.

> Unless they're absolute morons

At least in securities, the dirty secret is most insider traders are in Congress and/or morons.

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oa335 3 hours ago
> Unless they're absolute morons, the people doing insider trading for large sums of money will have already built a strong alibi.

My theory is they are banking on preemptive presidential pardons in Dec 2028.

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Noaidi 3 hours ago
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JumpCrisscross 13 minutes ago
Keep in mind that preëmptive pardons have not been upheld by the courts [1].

[1] https://www.criminallawlibraryblog.com/preemptive-pardons-co...

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ZeroGravitas 3 hours ago
In some nations just gambling on a war that your soldiers have died in would ruin people's careers and possibly their lives permanently as they are shunned by society.

In other nations you can illegally sell arms to Iran in order to illegally evade congress's attempts to stop you supplying money to terrorists, illegally shred evidence and lie to congress under oath about it all and get a job as a pundit on Fox News.

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bdcravens 57 minutes ago
I'm not convinced there won't be someone with a chip on their shoulder eager to snitch. Trump has been known to leave folks out to dry once they're used up (for example, Ruby Giuliani and Mike Lindell). Just today there's been discussion about how Kash Patel feels like he's on the chopping block:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47813001

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paulpauper 3 hours ago
you can say you just felt like making a trade, or that you read one of Trump's posts the moment he put it up on Truth Social and you just happened to have the trade ready to go.

An employee with access to Truth Social's backend can in theory do this by reading the tweets he's writing before he sends them.

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ChrisArchitect 2 hours ago
Related:

Traders place $760M bet on falling oil ahead of Hormuz announcement

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47812385

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cineticdaffodil 4 hours ago
Now of cocourse there are bots circling watching for insider trades. Which you can "milk" by pretending to insider trade and then hedging a bet against them. A whole eco system of scoundrels
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artificialprint 3 hours ago
You don't get it, you can make m o n e y with it, with which you can buy a yacht and an expensive car.
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paulpauper 3 hours ago
and then spoofing. Creating fake trades to entice copycats.
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wslh 3 hours ago
I would be careful about attributing all of this to ordinary insider trading. Another plausible explanation is that some activity could come from state linked or intelligence adjacent actors, where the goal is not only profit but also testing or exploiting prediction markets as an auxiliary information channel.
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iambateman 3 hours ago
Occam would disagree.
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huorricannes 15 minutes ago
occam doesn't work in financial markets.

because if it did you would print money by following occam.

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OutOfHere 2 hours ago
The most Occam-safe explanation is not insider trading but actually hard work in analytics to rapidly surface intelligence from X and other alternative data sources.
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wslh 3 hours ago
[dead]
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echelon 3 hours ago
What value do prediction markets give to anyone not in the insider trading class?

I predict these will be banned when someone finally uses them as an "assassination market".

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jamal-kumar 3 hours ago
Government leaders and political policy advisors, intelligence agencies, hedge funds & quants, and large corporations doing crowdsourced forecasting for sure. That's probably why they haven't just been made illegal - the very policy makers are utilizing the data streams from this to predict the near-future to a decent degree. Companies like Cultivate Labs [1] go into the maths of it all but if you prefer videos Hypermind has some good ones [2] - anyone thinking this is just some degenerate gambler thing and criticizing them on those terms likely has no idea that people are doing pretty serious quantitative analysis on these things, to which use I will leave to your imagination

[1] https://www.cultivatelabs.com/crowdsourced-forecasting-guide

[2] https://www.hypermind.com/master-class

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SirMaster 3 hours ago
I thought the point of them is they are “truth machines” they give a financial incentive for the insider class to essentially share what they know.

The benefit to those outside the insider class are that we now have a better idea of the potential outcome.

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dvt 3 hours ago
This is what their argument is, and personally I think it's a pretty good one. But the main issue is that retail is getting fleeced and lives are being destroyed by gambling, so non-professional investors should not be able to use it. Imo, the upside (some fisherman with insider knowledge betting on the Strait of Hormuz) doesn't outweight the downside (a large-scale societal gambling epidemic[1]).

[1] https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/inside-out-outside-i...

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jamal-kumar 3 hours ago
I think it's worth noting that my bank lets me ruin my own life too if I want with their own trading platform
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avaer 3 hours ago
What are they sharing that they know though? That someone's getting bombed in an hour? That the government is rampant with corruption?

The first seems arguably treasonous. And the latter seems directly supported and funded by these "prediction markets".

If the argument is that prediction markets are truth machines, their social function seems to be support crime on a massive scale and get away with it.

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bostik 2 hours ago
Well, that's the entire point.

If we take a completely utilitarian and amoral viewpoint, the insiders are selling their material, non-public information. The rest of the market participants are buying. From the latter's utilitarian perspective the former are providing a valuable service and getting paid for it. I'm pretty sure there was a legal term for such sales activity...

The only people playing fair are those who don't know how to cheat well enough.

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dvt 3 hours ago
Afaik, Polymarket removes predictions that break CFTC's regulations (this includes assassinations, etc., at least in the US). They basically provide no value unless you're an insider, but they do tend to be leading indicators so it might inform some decisions (like: should you keep your money in oil?) that could be contingent on Polymarket predictions.
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paulpauper 3 hours ago
Anyone can profit from an information asymmetry or mispriced markets--not just insiders with connections. If you are willing do do enough research you can in theory gain such an advantage. This is what some hedge funds do.
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dogtorwoof 3 hours ago
I would argue that the sole value of prediction markets is to make insider knowledge accessible to the general public, quicker than it normally would.

That’s why these platforms saying things like “we will roll out insider trading” is laughable.

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operatingthetan 3 hours ago
>I would argue that their sole value is to make insider knowledge accessible quicker to the general public.

Is anyone using AI to track these audacious and large bets? Seems like you could actually do this to tell which ones are insider info and which are just stupid random bets?

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OutOfHere 2 hours ago
I would just count which side of the bet has more bets above the median bet size with a zero or near-zero bet history. Insiders are more likely to use throwaway accounts than are non-insiders. Spoofers may however deter such analysis. AI may not strictly be needed for analysis.
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operatingthetan 2 hours ago
I haven't actually used the platforms except looking at betting odds for elections. Do they give any tools for looking at past results and analyzing?
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OutOfHere 2 hours ago
Just because an insider bets on something does not in any way make the bet obvious to onlookers until the event is materialized for all to see. There is absolutely no surfacing of intelligence here because big bets are on both sides, winning and losing.
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hdhdhsjsbdh 4 hours ago
Yet more evidence of the rapid disassembly of the social contract and our collective ethics, aided of course by unregulated tech. If you work for – or are involved in the funding of – these unregulated gambling and insider trading platforms, you should be ashamed of yourself. Your greed and lack of concern for the health of the human world you live in is sickening. You can get bag after bag but it will never fill the void in your soul.
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arjie 31 minutes ago
The biggest sums involved appear to be on the oil futures market. That market has existed for a long time (half a century to a century depending on the sophistication you measure). If this is is a novel occurrence it cannot be the platform that 'caused' it.

I think it's just that we create useful tools: futures, the pre-emptive pardon, and so on. Then people figure out how to use those tools to enrich themselves in ways we did not anticipate. It's just a question of how we fix our machinery in this cat and mouse game or if it is fixable at all.

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thot_experiment 3 hours ago
This applies to almost everyone working on SaaS; not in all cases, but the absolute majority work on SaaS means creating artificial scarcity in order to extract value from people. It is a fundamentally evil, antisocial, anti human thing to do. If you believe that is okay to restrict access to infinite resources to preserve the status quo you deserve the same place in hell as the people pushing gambling.

Don't create artificial scarcity. Don't play zero sum games.

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shigawire 3 hours ago
> almost everyone working on SaaS; not in all cases, but the absolute majority work on SaaS means creating artificial scarcity in order to extract value from people.

Maybe this is just my lack of understanding in how most SaaS companies operate... But to me making software that people find valuable and charging them for that is not inherently immoral. Surely that is the majority of cases?

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com2kid 3 hours ago
> This applies to almost everyone working on SaaS;

The original idea behind SaaS is to align the incentives of the customers and the software company.

Historically software companies made money on selling upgrades. This meant bug fixes were not a priority, and security fixes were something companies got shamed into doing.

SaaS fixes that incentive problem. With reliable ongoing revenue a company can keep software patched and updated and doesn't have to cram a bunch of new shiny marketable features in just to make a huge sale every 3 or 4 years, while engineers try and add whatever bug fixes they can after the shiny new features have been polished off.

It also means software companies don't have boom or bust cycles with hiring. Funding stays consistent, and so does staffing. It makes the financials much easier to manage. Companies used to hire a bunch of temp employees in the run up to a release.

Ongoing release cycles also led to better software engineering practices. More automated tests, reproducible builds, better version control systems, and a lot more things that we take for granted now days.

There are obvious downsides to SaaS as well, but the original idea was good.

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cmwelsh 3 hours ago
I’ve never heard “intellectual property” phrased as “artificial scarcity” and it isn’t exactly wrong…
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Noaidi 3 hours ago
> Don't create artificial scarcity.

Nah. You know what the answer is? Get to a mental and physical state where you need very little. Right now the only way to win is not to play.

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throwaway132448 3 hours ago
This is pseudo-intellectual drivel. Creating value and then charging for it is not creating “artificial scarcity”, any more than doing nothing is creating “artificial scarcity” by absence of value. There was no “infinite resource” that just happened to exist before the work was put in to create it. And creating value is - almost by definition - completely orthogonal to zero sum games.
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CPLX 3 hours ago
This is the only reasonable point of view to take on the widespread and obviously unethical outbreak of gambling platforms. The fact that it's downboated and towards the bottom is just a reflection of how far the discourse has fallen.

Granted, maybe I should be less surprised given the fact that this is all being posted on the promotional website of a technology-focused private equity fund, but it's disappointing nonetheless.

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paulpauper 3 hours ago
Insider trading exists with stocks too. I mean, if there is a way for people to profit by bending the rules or information asymmetry, someone will find a way.
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cyanydeez 3 hours ago
Isn't it more than the ability to manipulate global markets essentially means we're headed towards a global inflation crisis? No one with critical thinking skills believe Elon's valuations are a rational market concern.

But if they _are_ rational, eg, a zimbawean inflation nightmare, then if you're not trying to "escape the permanent underclass" then _you_ are the irrational person.

So ignoring all politics, we're really dealing with a zeitgeist of people who think wealth inequality is endless, and the only way to survive is to lobster bucket and YOLO every chance to gamble.

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sieste 3 hours ago
Maybe a superhuman AI? /s
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_the_inflator 2 hours ago
[flagged]
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