Who Killed the Florida Orange?
68 points by danso 2 days ago | 66 comments

markbnj 15 seconds ago
The John McPhee article that the author references was expanded into a book, and it's a great read for anyone that finds this story interesting: https://www.amazon.com/Oranges-John-McPhee-ebook/dp/B005E8AN...
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exmadscientist 2 days ago
The other thing that I can't help but think has seriously hurt the industry is that, between concentrate and flavor packs, almost all supermarket orange juice tastes like garbage. Fresh-squeezed orange juice is, of course, the benchmark. If you ever taste Minute Maid back-to-back with fresh-squeezed, well, you probably won't be buying Minute Maid again any time soon. It just doesn't even taste like oranges. There are a few brands available (the expensive ones, of course) that do come close enough to actually taste like oranges, but when the mass-market product falls that far down in quality, you can't help but wonder how anyone still wants to buy it.
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somat 2 days ago
The process to make never concentrated orange juice logistically viable involves removing all the oxygen from the juice so it stores well. Now you can take a seasonal product like oranges and sell the juice the entire year around. Unfortunately removing the oxygen also removes most of the flavor. so what the bottlers do is add an engineered "flavor package" when they bottle the juice to add the flavor back.

I am halfway convinced that flavor wise frozen concentrated orange juice is "closer to the tree" than the "never concentrated" stuff. Nothing on fresh squeezed. But that is the price we pay to have a non-seasonal product.

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chrisco255 38 minutes ago
Is it really non-seasonal any longer now that there are reliable international markets in southern hemisphere to support?
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MisterTea 2 hours ago
A local grocery store used to make their own fresh squeezed using a refrigerator sized stainless steel machine that might as well have been a Rube Goldberg machine with its winding metal wire chute full of oranges which led to the squeezing head. That thing was kept right in the aisle next to the refrigerator case they kept the juice in. It was the best orange juice though expensive as it was over 10 bucks a quart when the store finally closed. I tried to call and buy the machine but got nowhere. Turns out the owner died so the family closed up the shop and liquidated it.

As for Minute Maid, it has always tasted awful to me and it tasted worse in the 80s. The only packaged OJ I can stand is Tropicana.

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simmons 2 hours ago
A Sam's Club in my area has started selling fresh squeezed orange juice. It's quite delicious. (And yes, it's pricey.) I've looked around at many other stores (including places like Whole Foods) and nobody else seems to be doing this.
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detourdog 2 hours ago
Tropicana used to get high marks from me. The only brand I buy in a grocery store is Natalie’s.

Fresh squeezed is amazing.

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soperj 2 hours ago
pretty much everywhere in the Netherlands has contraptions like this, small though, not fridge sized. Didn't see orange concentrate anywhere.

Minute maid actually tastes better than Tropicana to me (can't stand that brand), been getting one from Spain lately at Costco (Don Simon) that's pretty good, less sweet.

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seszett 43 minutes ago
Standard in France and Belgium as well.

I have never liked Tropicana or Minute Maid, but about... 30 years ago? We used to have a brand called Fruvita that actually tasted good but it got bought by Tropicana, the taste changed, and we just stopped buying orange juice.

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ryandrake 2 hours ago
I've always found it pretty scary how some mass-market foods have diverged almost completely from the thing they are actually representing. The weird milky vaguely-citrus flavor of chemical that comes in the box labeled "Orange Juice" is just one of many examples. For another example, go taste a grape and then taste some so-called "grape juice." It's actually mostly apple juice, and doesn't even remotely taste like grapes.
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colechristensen 51 minutes ago
Dark grape juice is made of concord grapes which are the primary variety which is made into jelly, jam, juice, and in general grape flavored things. They don't taste like grocery store eating grapes, they're a different variety.

THEY ARE DELICIOUS when you can find them, one of the things I miss about living in California was the brief season you could get a concord grape on the vine to eat. I have never seen them outside a bay area farmer's market, late summer if I remember correctly.

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skyberrys 44 minutes ago
I love concord grapes so much. Im eagerly awaiting their annual return to the farmers market (early September). I love them so much the vendors know to get me and tell me when they are here. I don't understand why the demand for them is small.
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colechristensen 42 minutes ago
I also deeply miss the limes. The halfway-to-yellow actually ripened limes that didn't even show up some years.

If I knew for sure when they would be available I'd certainly make a trip across the country to eat those limes.

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skyberrys 12 minutes ago
Those lines are just hanging out on the trees around for most of the year! Best storage for citrus is on the tree.
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rkomorn 49 minutes ago
I never understood why grape flavored things taste the way they do until I (accidentally) bought Concord grapes.

That said, "delicious" is definitely a matter of opinion.

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qup 2 days ago
I haven't had minute maid in a long time, but I enjoy Simply, and Sam's club house brand is pretty good as well.

Nothing like a fresh Florida orange, though. I used to know a secret tree in a public preserve that had the best oranges known to man.

I might drive down this winter and see if it's still there.

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dcrazy 2 days ago
It may surprise you to learn that Simply Beverages is owned by Coca-Cola, who also own Minute Maid.

Simply is definitely the superior of their product lines.

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m4rkuskk 2 hours ago
From the store bought orange juices, I think the Trader joes one is the closest to tasting like fresh-squeezed.
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bsimpson 3 hours ago
Back before Starbucks bought them, Evolution was magical. They sold cold-pressed orange juice in the store that tasted fresh. I lived by that stuff!
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therobots927 51 minutes ago
It’s the boiling frog problem. Consumers gradually become used to lower quality. 15 years ago, McDonald’s was good. You knew it was bad for you but it was so good that you just didn’t care and it was a great cheat meal. You could get an Angus Delux meal for $7. https://wealthgang.com/mcdonalds-prices-throughout-the-years...

Of course they discontinued the angus burgers that actually used high quality ingredients compared to the McDouble / quarter pounders.

Now it’s $12 for a double quarter pounder meal and it tastes like shit. I only notice this because I just didn’t eat there much in the last 15 years. Meat quality and bun quality has clearly gotten worse. I don’t know how they keep growing sales.

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BoneShard 2 days ago
It was a sad day for me when I realized that a glass of orange juice(or any juice in general) isn't much better for your health than a can of soda and probably even worse than diet/zero coke.
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baron816 2 hours ago
This is what happened to me. I would guzzle orange juice. I couldn’t start a day unless I had a giant glass of it. Then I found out that it was just all sugar and not much else. I don’t think I’ve had a glass of the stuff in over a decade.
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Noumenon72 2 days ago
I love cutting grapefruit in half and digging out chunks because at the end you get to drink grapefruit juice the way it was intended, as a reward for eating grapefruit.
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pfannkuchen 2 days ago
Do you eat the seeds and poop them out somewhere nice? I think that’s what the grapefruit intended.
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dylan604 2 hours ago
No that's silly. Everyone knows that when you eat a seed like that, the plant grows in your belly.
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pitaj 26 minutes ago
this made my day
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thatguy0900 2 hours ago
You could make the argument that the grapefruit succeeded in its intention already, by being so good that humanity tends and manages whole groves of grapefruit trees
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triceratops 2 hours ago
What if you make fresh squeezed OJ at home, eat the leftover pulp and skins first, and then drink the juice? I wonder if that has the same glycemic impact as eating an orange.
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orev 2 hours ago
The juice is still much less healthy. It’s the act of having your guts extract the nutrients that makes fruit healthy, because it reduces how quickly your body absorbs it. Once you make it into juice (or a smoothie) by mechanically digesting it prior to consumption, you’ve removed the need for that.
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nslsm 2 hours ago
Why not just eat the orange. I can't be the only one who finds eating the pulp alone icky. Like chewing on a damp rag.
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hedora 2 days ago
Most artificial sweeteners have metabolic side effects, and lead to weight gain.

You’re probably better off drinking cane sugar soda because it is more filling than HFCS soda.

Anyway orange juice is probably better still. At least it has some vitamin C and maybe trace fiber in it.

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Night_Thastus 2 minutes ago
There seems to be little to no evidence of any negative effects from just about any artificial sweeteners. I mean shoot, Aspartame immediately breaks down into some of the most common amino acids in the body. There's no biological mechanism for it to do anything negative.

Sugar, on the other hand, has very well known and studied health risks at the concentrations we see in a lot of modern 'staples' - soda and juice included.

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jpfromlondon 2 days ago
no metabolic effects from sweeteners, wish you lot would stop moving the goalposts on why sweeteners are unhealthy:

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC12098100/

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m3047 26 minutes ago
This just in, licorice kills dogs. Once in a while it kills people too. (affects insulin production, and aldosterone causing blood pressure effects then downstream effects on blood potassium and kidneys)
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hedora 2 days ago
The abstract says the study is useless:

> However, given this study applied a heterogeneous ASB formula, it could not adequately consider the role of specific artificial sweeteners. Further research is needed to evaluate the potential effect of different artificial sweeteners and their doses on health.

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jpfromlondon 2 days ago
it's also not the only study, just one example, besides that's standard boilerplate CE so as not to assume liability.
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Tagbert 2 hours ago
Similar to the reports that talk about health problems with sweeteners. Not enough good data to be informative and actionable.
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BugsJustFindMe 10 minutes ago
> Most artificial sweeteners have metabolic side effects, and lead to weight gain.

So does sugar.

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lotsofpulp 40 minutes ago
>Most artificial sweeteners have metabolic side effects, and lead to weight gain.

I have not seen a single double blind study show this in the many decades low calorie sweeteners have been consumed (in normal amounts).

What I have seen is study after study showing the harms of consuming too many carbohydrates (the amounts contained in normal consumption of juice due to quantity of sugar).

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bena 2 hours ago
Yes, the way I've heard it put is eating an orange is fine, but drinking a glass of juice is like eating an entire orchard.
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pjc50 2 days ago
This reminds me of the collapse of the Gros Michel banana variety, also due to disease. Near-100% loss of a food crop, even a luxury one, is an alarming thing to see though.

(I was wondering if climate change would be mentioned, but that doesn't seem to be critical there yet. Starting to be noticed in European grape terroir.)

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HugoTea 12 hours ago
They mention it as a critical factor, the disease is spread by insects, which is spread by hurricanes. The areas they grow the oranges never used to get hurricanes.

> Hurricanes turned out to be a vector for spreading the little winged bug. The wind carried the psyllid all over the state, dropping it off in hundreds of thousands of acres of groves.

> It was the perfect storm. And then, of course, there were the actual perfect storms, the high-caliber hurricanes that, before climate change, didn’t come to the Ridge: Irma, Ian, Milton, massive cells, all direct hits on the groves.

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onlyrealcuzzo 2 hours ago
Did this banana have seeds!? I've never seen one, but it looks awful. They were actually good?
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mech422 26 minutes ago
I never had one, but apperently they tasted much better then the current variety (which IIRC, is in danger of suffering the same fate)

IIRC, there was actually a huge marketing push because people wouldn't each the current variety ?

PS - the old one didn't go 100% extinct, and you can get small numbers of them from specialty growers. Youtube has videos of people trying them (1)

1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9ZtvpBoXzI

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throw0101d 60 minutes ago
Meta: giving oranges as gifts at Christmas was a bit of a thing in the past when they used to be much more rare during winter: from Valencia/Ivrea for Europeans, and California/Florida in the US.

* https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/why-we-should-br...

In the US the Interstate system helped reduce shipping and logistic costs across state lines, and so oranges became more prevalent and less 'special' post-WW2.

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SoftTalker 50 minutes ago
There are (were?) also dedicated "juice trains" running from Florida to various destinations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juice_Train

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chrisco255 36 minutes ago
Also the passenger train immortalized by Johnny Cash's "Orange Blossom Special": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWz5NzY3Zck
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HardwareLust 2 days ago
It's not who killed it, it's what killed it and the answer is greed.
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nerdsniper 2 days ago
For anyone not aware, the most proximate cause of the disappearance of "Florida Orange Juice™ " is the Candidatus Liberibacter asiaticus bacteria. Monoculture is often blamed, but the bacteria affects all citrus trees - oranges, limes, lemons, grapefruits, pomelos, etc.
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tetromino_ 12 minutes ago
According to the article, the reason why the bacteria was so quickly fatal for Florida orange trees is that their roots were weakened by a sequence of major hurricanes and by many years of excessive pesticide use.
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cratermoon 2 hours ago
Those are all the same plant. Hybrids of Citrus. A monoculture.
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nerdsniper 53 minutes ago
In the past, "monoculture" was used to describe things like "one particular variety of banana"[0] - e.g. the Gros Michel banana fell to fungus and was replaced by the Cavendish banana, which was not susceptible to the same fungus but is now also falling to a similar fungus, and will be replaced by another banana variety. In fact, they're not just the same species but closely related cultivars - both part of the AAA banana cultivar group (triploid cultivars of Musa acuminata).

The article in Time Magazine puts it succinctly:

> There’s a name for this situation: monoculture, the practice of fostering just one variety of something.

In the case of bananas (and many other crops, plants, decorative trees, etc), a diversity of varieties would have minimized the spread and impact of pathogens, while providing a more diverse selection of nutritional content and flavor for consumers. But that doesn't seem to be the case for citrus trees.

I don't think that "monoculture", as it has been used or the past 50+ years, is the appropriate concept to apply to this citrus greening. Perhaps we could criticize something else - like tree density? Or perhaps monoculture is the problem, but in a much broader sense - maybe a grove with 10% citrus trees, 10% corn, 10% soybeans, 10% berries, 10% apple trees, etc...would create a biome that was hostile to the citrus greening bacteria in such a way that it couldn't thrive and spread. We have no data to support that hypothesis at this time though.

0: "What We Can Learn From the Near-Death of the Banana" https://time.com/5730790/banana-panama-disease/

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amanaplanacanal 45 minutes ago
Monoculture can also mean just one species.
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lightedman 4 minutes ago
The Florida Orange was NEVER the Florida Orange to begin with.

Of note from the story: "...because it came from China, where oranges also came from in the first place." Technically yes but also no, what we have for the modern navel orange came from a mutation that happened in Brazil in the 1800s - 200 years after its introduction from China. The parent trees for literally the entire navel orange (aka Florida aka Sunkist orange) industry are in Riverside, CA, I see them every day driving to work. The now-deceased Queen of England used to get two boxes of oranges from those very trees every year.

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CobrastanJorji 2 hours ago
Fascinating story. I wonder how much the earlier pesticides contributed to the problem. The story mentions it as a thing that was passing, and it makes me curious what would have happened without the pesticides.

I'm also curious whether the bugs would survive if you cut down every orange tree in Florida, waited a couple of years, and then planted new groves.

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cratermoon 2 hours ago
Sugarcane and pineapple used to be the biggest agricultural products in Hawaii. Now they're gone.
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SoftTalker 2 hours ago
What caused this in Hawaii?
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MrRadar 2 hours ago
IIRC for sugar it's because of cheaper cane sugar substitutes (corn syrup and sugar beets) out-competing the cane sugar grown in Hawaii.
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SoftTalker 28 minutes ago
So, market conditions then, and not some kind of blight or parasite? Wasn't sure.
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fuzzfactor 2 days ago
Looks like premature collapse of a monoculture due to excess stress, much of it a result of human effort.
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nerdsniper 2 days ago
I don't think monoculture is relevant for once; the bacteria affects all citrus trees: oranges, limes, lemons, grapefruits, pomelos, etc.
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fuzzfactor 2 days ago
Yeah, not just one or two susceptible varieties.

But when you have nothing but the perfect host for the infection, in incredibly massive proportions as far as the eye can see, a little bacteria goes a long way.

Which can be even worse :(

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cratermoon 2 hours ago
But those are all the same plant - hybridized Citrus.
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chrisco255 26 minutes ago
It's not monoculture, it's Florida's climate being the perfect environment for the psyllid that causes the disease. California's drier, less humid climate has been more resilient to the bug.
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peacechance 2 days ago
[dead]
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