Stochastic Parrots: Frequently Unasked Questions
25 points by olalonde 4 days ago | 17 comments

hellohello2 43 minutes ago
"Text generated by an LM is not grounded in communicative intent, any model of the world, or any model of the reader’s state of mind."

Modelling text describing the world is not modelling (some aspect) of the world?

Modelling the probability that a reader likes or dislike a piece of text is not modelling (some aspect) of a reader's state of mind?

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tootie 15 minutes ago
No? There's no model involved. It's all just probabilistic. LLMs understand what you're thinking as well as a mood ring.
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afthonos 3 minutes ago
Nothing about an LLM is “just”. In what precise sense do you mean it is probabilistic?
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hellohello2 8 minutes ago
The literal definition of a model is "an informative representation of an object, person, or system". I think you mean something else though, what are you trying to express exactly?
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leonidasv 49 minutes ago
What a hill to die on.
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radkZ 45 minutes ago
This is the first submission since a year that gives me some hope for humanity. It shows that linguistics is not obsolete. Maybe the last people capable of thinking will be linguists.
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libraryofbabel 46 minutes ago
It would have been nice to see some version of “I am very surprised by how far LLMs have come since I wrote the stochastic parrots paper, here is how I have revised my thinking.” But there is nothing like that and the author is just doubling down or trying to correct perceived “misinterpretations” of her work.

Meanwhile you have multiple Fields Medalists (Tau, Gowers) saying they’re very impressed by LLMs’ mathematical reasoning, something that the stochastic parrots thesis (if it has any empirically-predictive content at all) would predict was impossible. I doubt Tau and Gowers thought much of LLMs a few years ago either. But they changed their minds. Who do you want to listen to?

I think it’s time to retire the Stochastic Parrots metaphor. A few years ago a lot of us didn’t think LLMs would ever be capable of doing what they can do now. I certainly didn’t. But new methods of training (RLVR) changed the game and took LLMs far beyond just reducing cross entropy on huge corpuses of text. And so we changed our opinions. Shame Emily Bender hasn’t too.

Sigh.

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tootie 12 minutes ago
She says explicitly it's not an empirical hypothesis. It's just a label for how they function. Which hasn't really changed even as they've gotten more useful. I haven't followed the full drama but this post is her saying the term has been frequently misapplied and she's basically distancing herself from some critiques that were misinterpreting her intent.
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mbauman 13 minutes ago
> stochastic parrots thesis (if it has any empirically-predictive content at all

Did you read TFA? This is precisely one of the non-questions that she answers.

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seatsh 32 minutes ago
Gowers, Tao and Lichtman are especially impressed by the funding of math.inc and the AI for Math Fund, a joint venture of Renaissance Philanthropies and XTX Markets.

Renaissance Philanthropies is a front for VC companies.

They never publish allocated computational resources, prior art or any novel algorithm that is used in the LLMs. For all we know, all accounts that are known to work on math stunts get 20% of total compute.

In other words, they ignore prior art, do not investigate and just celebrate if they get a vibe math result. It isn't science, it is a disgrace.

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newtonsmethod 13 minutes ago
Is your justification in dismissing Fields medalists that they are impressed by funding? Not even receiving it (I assume you say this because Tao is not funded by AI for Math, but rather an advisor for it)?

Not only would it be a leap to suggest that people automatically lose their integrity by taking funds for projects they believe are useful, especially after involvement with adjacent fields, but you are suggesting merely being impressed by a fund is enough to dismiss their views?

You also have no evidence that Renaissance Philanthropies is a front for VC companies. All news coverage indicates that they seek to be an alternative for high net worth individuals engaging in philanthropy.

Many people discovering Erdos results, engaging in Olympiads etc, are doing so with publicly available models and publish the resources used in the process.

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gyanchawdhary 56 minutes ago
[dead]
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_wire_ 4 days ago
Lovely article well worth attention by virtue of its regard for the cultural traits of terminology and its inflections, while also debunking the pervasive lore that "AI" devices are doing anything but the merest resemblance of thinking.

It's rare to read an author who can directly face Brandolini's Law of misinformation asymmetry and not only hold his own against the bullshit but overcome it.

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CamperBob2 2 hours ago
TIL that the "merest resemblance of thinking" is enough to take gold at IMO.
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radkZ 49 minutes ago
Automated theorem provers are not new, in fact they are very old. One of the most automated is ACL2, which uses the well studied waterfall method (unrelated to waterfall development).

LLMs certainly use something similar, except they understand text as input. LLMs, especially used for marketing stunts, have way more computing power available than any theorem prover ever had. They probably do random restarts if a proof fails which amounts to partially brute forcing.

Lawrence Paulson correctly complained about some of the hype that Lean/LLMs are getting.

ACL2 even uses formulaic text output that describes the proof in human language, despite being all in Common Lisp and not a mythical clanker.

They do not think and use old and well established algorithms or perhaps novel ones that were added.

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nsingh2 16 minutes ago
Proof search isn't new, but I don't think that captures the value of LLMs.

They act as a learned proposal mechanism on top of hard search. Things like suggesting relevant lemmas, tactics, turning intent into formal steps, and ranking branches based on trained knowledge.

Maybe a kind of learned "intuition engine", from a large corpus of mathematical text, that still has to pass a formal checker. This is not really something we've had to this extent before.

> They do not think

That claim seems less useful, unless “think” is defined in a way that predicts some difference in capability. If the objection is that LLMs are not conscious, fine, but that doesn't say much about whether they can help produce correct formal proofs.

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scotty79 2 hours ago
And also create novel math proofs.
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tom_ 3 minutes ago
Perhaps actual thinking is not automatically necessary for that either! - and the LLM is proof.
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