Spain blocks prediction markets Polymarket, Kalshi over lack of gambling licence
171 points by thm 3 hours ago | 86 comments

solenoid0937 2 hours ago
These - especially Polymarket - should be illegal globally, as they incentivize people with power to manipulate the real world in horribly destructive ways to win a bet.

I would not be surprised if people are murdered at some point to reap the payout of some related bet.

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hmry 2 hours ago
Yeah. You aren't allowed to set up a life insurance policy on someone else's life, or a fire insurance policy on someone else's home. For obvious reasons. But buying an event contract that pays if someone dies or someone's house burns down is fine?
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chollida1 55 minutes ago
being pedantic here but

> You aren't allowed to set up a life insurance policy on someone else's life, or a fire insurance policy on someone else's home

This isn't really true. Lots of people take out life insurance on others as a hedge for many reasons, small business partner is one. Same fire insurance, we had a case where someone pledged a building as collateral and we took out separate fire insurance on the building so we'd get paid out immediately.

I'm not sure where this false premise started but alot of people believe it.

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compiler-guy 28 minutes ago
The technical term is that you must have an “insurable interest” in what you insure. Both of your examples are people protecting their insurance interest. Onwership is the most common insurable interest, but there are many other ways to have one.

This is done because the insurance company wants you to prefer that the covered event doesn’t happen, which avoids some conflicts of interest.

These prediction market events don’t have the usual insurance interests involved.

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chollida1 19 minutes ago
> The technical term is that you must have an “insurable interest” in what you insure.

Yep, we're in full agreement here

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mschild 26 minutes ago
To perhaps be a bit more pendantic.

You're not allowed to take out life insurance on someone you don't know or have a relationship (business or otherwise) with.

Life insurance on a business partner works. Life insurance on your spouse as well.

Life insurance on the leader of a random country? Unlikely

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hmry 42 minutes ago
No no I appreciate the pedantry, thank you for the correction
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PyWoody 24 minutes ago
> I'm not sure where this false premise started but alot of people believe it.

It being the driving plot behind Double Indemnity probably started it. I always thought it was true until your comment, too.

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philipallstar 57 minutes ago
Well, you are privately allowed to bet on whatever you like with another individual. That is indeed legally fine, though potentially distasteful.

Polymarket is facilitating bets between people, not bets with the house. Gambling and insurance are both bets with the house.

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kube-system 42 minutes ago
> Well, you are privately allowed to bet on whatever you like with another individual.

What jurisdiction are we painting with that broad brush? This is far from universally true, even in the US.

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jubilanti 16 minutes ago
Nope. "We're just an intermediary between people" is a 100+ year old yarn that casinos and bookies have been trying to spin. If you're presenting a point of entry to a betting line and taking a cut, congrats, you're the house. Doesn't matter if you adjust the betting line manually based on intuition or algorithmically based on betting volume. Sometimes it doesn't get enforced because of corruption, but if this was the case, then why aren't there tons of independent unregulated poker casinos where players just play against each other? If you facilitate and take a cut, you're the house.
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josefritzishere 19 minutes ago
That "facilitating" argument didn't work out for Silk Road.
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CPLX 46 minutes ago
What the hell are you talking about? You are absolutely not allowed to bet on whatever you'd like with another individual. Depending on what you're betting on (for example, the price of a stock or the throw of a card), it falls under varying different regimes. This is highly regulated and has been for most of the whole of human history.

Yes, there are de minimis exceptions. Your office NCAA pool, for example, is often legal, but it has nothing to do with what we're talking about and is also irrelevant to a business facilitating it via 18 U.S.C. § 1955.

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WarmWash 36 minutes ago
> as they incentivize people with power to manipulate the real world

I would argue that the ratio between "power" and "money to be won" is too big (at least right now) for this to materially matter. No fortune 500 CEO is going to postpone a product launch so they can win $5,000 on polymarket. But some random guy will get his hair dryer to win a socially meaningless weather bet.

It's not discussed often, but the liquidity of these markets is often awful, and you can only win as much as people are willing to take the other side. Which is harder when people know it's easy for insiders (or the outcome decider themselves) to play the other side.

Basically the more socially consequential the outcome, the less likely you care about a betting market.

The real winners are people with little or no power to effect outcome, but with insider knowledge. And athletes.

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jubilanti 28 minutes ago
> No fortune 500 CEO is going to postpone a product launch so they can win $5,000 on polymarket.

No, but a low paid frontline worker with the ability to throw a last minute wrench into the gears absolutely would.

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ambicapter 16 minutes ago
> It's not discussed often, but the liquidity of these markets is often awful, and you can only win as much as people are willing to take the other side. Which is harder when people know it's easy for insiders (or the outcome decider themselves) to play the other side.

You're basically arguing that there aren't enough fools to go around, when we're talking about gambling enterprises.

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PowerElectronix 10 minutes ago
Not fools, these bets are usually very close to a fair market price. But people are not willing to wager millions of dollars on the temperature registered in a certain place at a certain time. Or on if hezbollah missiles impact Israel land or whatever.
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bobthepanda 60 seconds ago
The latter kind of prediction has become less desirable to bet on ever since the shenanigans around whether or not Maduro's kidnapping counted as an invasion of Venezuela.
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cyanydeez 13 minutes ago
So, what you're discussing is basically, whales are going to be the bettors and it sucks that there'll always be a bunch of marks but: No ones going to stop the whales because there'll always be suckers.

Welcome to the grift economy, take a number.

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AtNightWeCode 7 minutes ago
The CEO of Coinbase finished an earnings call by reading all the buzzwords you could bet on to be mention during the call. So a CEO can manipulate these things and who knows if it was just a marketing thing or if he shared his plans.
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freejazz 19 minutes ago
> No fortune 500 CEO is going to postpone a product launch so they can win $5,000 on polymarket

They would win a lot more than a trivial amount by taking adverse positions, no? Seems like you're making up your own hypothetical

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petcat 2 hours ago
> should be illegal globally

Let's not pretend that Spain of all places is caring about horribly destructive psuedo-gambling.

Banning "unregulated gambling" is just pressure to make sure that the Spanish gambling racket stays intact for the bookies already at the top.

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Copenjin 41 minutes ago
Sadly correct and I expect that many other countries will follow suit very soon, they don't really care about gambling addiction or related problems.
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st_goliath 37 minutes ago
> I would not be surprised if people are murdered at some point to reap the payout of some related bet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borussia_Dortmund_team_bus_bom...

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akersten 22 minutes ago
> they incentivize people with power to manipulate the real world in horribly destructive ways to win a bet.

How does the same line of argument not also suggest that stock markets be prohibited?

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cyanydeez 15 minutes ago
They'll be illegal anywhere democracy wants to properly function. How can I bet on this ripe assumption? Is there a market somewhere?
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ryoshu 27 minutes ago
They become hyperstition engines.
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AtNightWeCode 20 minutes ago
Historically similar services have also been used to try to manipulate the real world by using bets for creating opinions. Like if you get to vote between candidate x and y and x leads by 75% to 25% on Polymarket maybe you don't vote for y even if the real numbers may be way closer.
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PowerElectronix 8 minutes ago
That opens up very fast to a very expensive arbitrage (on the manipulating party)
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amelius 2 hours ago
Someone should place a bet on the lifespan of the polymarket founders.
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piltdownman 2 hours ago
Prop betting on a transparent and equitable Exchange is a perfectly reasonable and egalitarian proposal - it's the Betfair Exchange vs Betfair Sportsbook model expanded outside of the scope of sports.

Allowing prediction markets to overlap with criminal incentives is a platform TOS and moderation problem; not a prediction market or betting exchange problem.

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CPLX 50 minutes ago
> Allowing prediction markets to overlap with criminal incentives is a platform TOS and moderation problem

What in the fuck are you talking about? This is a public policy problem and has been literally for 3,000 years.

It's one of the oldest and most pervasive public policy problems that has spanned nearly every culture that's existed since there was culture.

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throwawa1 2 hours ago
When I see people making money on Iran attacks, and murder of heads of state - it shows clearly something is deeply wrong with Polymarket. Its a level worse than Vegas or Indian casinos. A literal ticket to hell. I'm all for banning these evil sites.
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croes 19 minutes ago
something is deeply wrong with some humans
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throwawa1 13 minutes ago
Its just a dark mirror episode. I can't imagine waking up and thinking "boy I'll really make some money if we kill Ayatollah Khomeini today"
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PowerElectronix 5 minutes ago
The other side of that argument could be something like: "Dude, Khomeini better not be killed, it'd suck for me, an average iranian dude. I'd probably bet he dies so I can hedge my personal financial wellbeing for that case"
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throwawaypath 14 minutes ago
Polymarket is a casino. A roulette wheel is not a "market". You can't beat the house.
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everdrive 51 minutes ago
I don't usually see advertisements, but I was in a position recently to see a real-life television stream, and I was quite surprised to see them run an advertisement for Kalshi. I was pretty surprised that something like this would be advertised to normal people. I'd half expect the next ad to be for a hitman, or for beating your wife, or something. Seems crazy that this is tolerated whatsoever.
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spwa4 4 minutes ago
Are they still doing blocks so configuring either Google's DNS or Cloudflare DNS will still unblock the sites?
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seydor 43 minutes ago
please stop calling them prediction markets. It's not even accurate, you do not buy a prediciton
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PowerElectronix 4 minutes ago
Could they be called that if they sold fortune cookies?
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izzydata 14 minutes ago
Can you further explain the semantics you are talking about here? Are people not trying to predict things? Thus it being a market for people making predictions?
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_diyar 2 hours ago
These services run on the blockchain, right? So in effect, there is no blocking them.
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piltdownman 2 hours ago
Off-ramping to fiat would be criminalised and pursued beyond the wildest dreams of La Liga/Cloudflare. A gambling site you can't withdraw your winnings from is of no interest to anyone.
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nicman23 47 minutes ago
bitcoin
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m00dy 56 minutes ago
how's it related to the Cloudflare ?
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TZubiri 54 minutes ago
spain also blocks cloudflare for copyright infringement
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jdiez17 2 hours ago
You can block the web user interface and effectively block Polymarket for 99.9% of users. No ban is ever 100% effective.
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kube-system 30 minutes ago
Prison bars are an unpatched DoS vulnerability that affects all blockchains.

https://xkcd.com/538/

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josefritzishere 2 hours ago
Well, that makes perfect sense. The whole world will eventually do the same. gambling with software is still gambling, just like accounting with software is still accounting.
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deaton 2 hours ago
Oh so finally someone is calling a spade a spade.
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kome 2 hours ago
well, it's gambling.
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cucumber3732842 38 minutes ago
"We're blocking this thing"

"Why, because it's bad?"

"No, because they they're not giving the right parties[1] a cut"

Never change government, never change.

[1] Based on my experience with casinos it's probably a bunch of make-work compliance industry and/or compulsory middle men who pretend to put a veneer of fairness on things

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ai_slop_hater 2 hours ago
Do stock markets have gambling licenses?
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cwmma 57 minutes ago
no they have a securities license. Also while a lot of stuff in stock markets are gambling like, the stock market is a positive sum game where very basic techniques (e.g. index investing) have positive expected values.

The buyers and sellers are not the only ones there, there is also the companies injecting money into it via dividends and stock buy backs, I can be a winner on the stock market without there having to be a loser.

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bilekas 57 minutes ago
No because they're not gabling. They also don't have an alcohol license too.
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stackedinserter 23 minutes ago
Who asked Spain, this country is irrelevant to anything.
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croes 19 minutes ago
So why did you write a comment
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jespinel 2 hours ago
Governments should not interfere with the private decisions of adults. If people want to gamble, let them. If you do not like gambling, then do not gamble. But do not use the government to force your "moral/ethical" preferences on everyone else.
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kube-system 19 minutes ago
That works in a world where everyone has equal knowledge and ability all of the time. Unfortunately, when that is not the case, sometimes humans have been known to take advantage of others. Due to this, every society on earth has created rules against various types of these situations.
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mint5 18 minutes ago
Should there be taxes on alcohol and cigarettes? Should there be warnings on them? What about on heroin?
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peer2pay 2 hours ago
Yeah great idea! Let’s also just legalise recreational fentanyl while we’re at it
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akramachamarei 2 hours ago
Yes
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add-sub-mul-div 59 minutes ago
There are entirely practical reasons that "private decisions of adults" can worsen society as a whole. We need laws and we can debate about nudging that line back and forth, the answers aren't easy. But acting like there shouldn't be a line is nonsensical.
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seydor 41 minutes ago
yeah, lets make a government to enforce that.
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delichon 2 hours ago
They require no gambling license to be a stock broker on the Bolsa de Madrid stock exchange.
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wsatb 2 hours ago
How do you defend these slimey companies? They’re actively running a mob casino and you still have people acting like government is the bad guys here. That doesn’t mean there can’t be better regulation of other markets, but comparing prediction markets to stock markets is a huge stretch.
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philipallstar 56 minutes ago
It's not a casino. You aren't betting against the house with polymarket, unlike with gambling sites. You're betting against other players.
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delichon 2 hours ago
Disagree, I find their product valuable and use them daily as a source of unusually high quality predictions. When used for this purpose insider trading is a feature that improves the quality of predictions. I see some fraud as in any market, but the overwhelming majority of transactions are voluntary, open and relatively informed within a highly transparent system.

I think that self fulfilling prophecy attempts by deep pockets trying to sway markets by bucking trends generally transfers money from more to less foolish bettors.

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superloika 29 minutes ago
You lived all your life without these evil companies. Life will go on when they are banished. I don't think you will miss "unusually high quality predictions" after a week.
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sorokod 40 minutes ago
A thought experiment: how would you feel about betting on a market that is an the outcome of a medical procedure? On a negative outcome? On a market for a negative outcome of your own procedure?
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mint5 34 minutes ago
What predictions? Why is it useful to know what the odds are for Trump to the word “postage stamp” in a specific speech?

Why are the sports odds useful? Word mention market and sports market are the majority of bets after all. Seems like >90% of wagers are useless noise.

Name 7 recent useful ones you actioned based on, one for each day of the last week. I’m very curious what those may be that you use it daily.

When I looked a the site and checked out a few non sport/word wagers, the actual bets were pretty unhelpful because while their summary sounded potentially informative the actual fine print showed that a weirdly constrained timeline of a specific thing was the actual deciding factor, making them useless.

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freejazz 11 minutes ago
Show me the insider trading on polymarket that is providing you with this crucial info. Show it to me now.
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nyc_data_geek1 2 hours ago
Equities are underlying collateral. Prediction markets are literally just betting on an outcome, no underlying asset exists.
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piltdownman 2 hours ago
Prediction Markets act the same way as Gambling Exchange - the assets are denominated as both sides of the book minus the spread.

https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/

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petcat 2 hours ago
What collateral is underlying the massive, state-sponsored, Spanish lottery ticket and scratch off racket?
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contubernio 3 minutes ago
A casino is by definition a house that takes rake and is not the government or one of its subsidiaries ...
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JCTheDenthog 59 minutes ago
I don't think you'd find anyone arguing that the lottery isn't gambling, so I'm not sure what argument you're trying to make here.
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delichon 2 hours ago
Collateral is not uncommon in gambling (e.g. pink slips). That does not seem to distinguish gambling from speculating.
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bena 2 hours ago
That's not collateral, that's the thing being wagered.
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pantulis 2 hours ago
Even if it was the same --I think it's not-- you'll need a "SIBE operator license", and cannot do it solo, you have to be an employee of an authorized firm (bank, broker or dealer).
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delichon 2 hours ago
It seems redundant to have two different regulatory systems for slightly different kinds of speculation.
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orwin 2 hours ago
I think it's fine. Here renting (or teaching) light sails (light catamaran) needs a different license than renting (or teaching) any sail cruiser, including catamarans, despite being basically the same object (boats with sails). Feels that the small differences are enough to justify a different regime.
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RandomLensman 2 hours ago
There are all sorts of different regulatory systems for all sorts of slightly different kinds of things.
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rtkwe 2 hours ago
It's not like equities markets are unregulated, be serious.
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lifestyleguru 2 hours ago
Your comment explains long queues to lottery ticket offices every time I visit Spain:)
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