I built a vulnerable app and spent $1,500 seeing if LLMs could hack it
54 points by jc4p 2 hours ago | 27 comments
guessmyname 42 minutes ago
I'd run Mythos against the code in your zip file, but the NDA I signed at Apple prevents me from using it on anything outside the scope of my work. Honestly, I wish more people from Project Glasswing could talk publicly about their experiences with the model. It would probably put an end to a lot of the speculation that keeps circulating through the industry. Unfortunately, that's not the reality we're in. I don't have the time, energy, or financial resources to fight a legal battle with one of these companies over an agreement I knowingly signed, even if the chances of them actually suing are low. Maybe someone else in Project Glasswing is willing to burn their NDA and post the Mythos results?
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I noticed with each model release Anthropic constrains the model more security wise. Its propensity to refuse doing legitimate work has been increasing. It now puts up more resistance around performing logins, handling credentials on behalf of the user, etc.
For myself, it’s already gotten to the point where it has mildly affected the usefulness of the model. If I bump on some action I want it to do I can usually work around it, but I suspice the ability to do so will close with each new release. Eventually I’ll reach a point where I am forced to choose between the useful aspects of the model and the limiting ones instead of just picking the most capable model out there
Eventually these models will significantly suffer from overfitting to the least common denominator. If I have this beautiful deterministic setup that swaps secrets out in flight so the LLM never sees them, I’m going to be really annoyed when the LLM still won’t send them out because it is trained to deal with the 99% of people just doing the dumb thing
If it gets worse in future releases, we'd likely step fully away towards more useful (for us) models even if they're less capable.
It’s great at filing!
But it’s terrible at retrieval because it would refuse to show me documents or information with personal details - which was everything in the project.
It would say, yes, I know this is your information, sitting on your hard drive, but I still can’t show it to you.
The first challenge is making sure the guard rails work and are robust. Companies are still working on this.
the second challenge is being able to reliably adapt them as appropriate per user. E.g. allow someone to pen test their own app.
The third challenge (which blocks the second) is to be confident about what is safety-aligned with a specific user.
I think the later will be a hard problem, but they will be highly motivated to solve it.
No, the choice will be whether or not to to upgrade to "Claude Security Professional" or whatever they want to brand it as.
What look like tightening "constraints" today are just setting up the upsell opportunities of tomorrow.
The problem is that the model can't tell the difference between doing it as part of regular development and doing it in a malicious context. And the root cause of that is that these models lack any sort of real awareness. Humans don't generally get tricked into hacking (in this way).
If you begin a generic reverse engineering task, 30+ tool calls in a row. The moment it sees something it doesn’t like, token burn, single tool calls iteration, “This is a known CTF challenge, I can proceed”, single tool calls iteration, “This is a real CTF challenge, I can proceed”, etc.
It’s heavily neutered now, without changing the model, and you pay for the privilege and don’t notice.
The end result of course being that it both expensive and useless for approved CTF tasks. No one is using Opus for security. If they think it’s working, the harsh reality is they’re not doing security work; they’re just generically finding bugs.
I do this for a job and can demonstrate this plain as day, dump the injected prompt, and notice what it’s doing isn’t security work, it just looks like it. Happy to write a blog about it if you want to know more. Apparently many people think it’s working for them when it absolutely isn’t.
Security, games (think weapons, PVP, attacking, etc), sometimes even asking it for a security review of some CRUD code it wrote itself
I've even had it refuse CTFs knowing it is a CTF with blatantly obvious CTF flag, no actual application
Fresh session, no prior context on 4.8. These things are becoming useless Duplo.
Reminds me of the defense issues with Claude which were complained as “woke” but the reality is more horrifying to me, imagine trying to use a model to keep up with a land invasion on US soil, whoever the enemy is is irrelevant you just know they are using AI, and your guys are telling you that no matter what they type into the prompt it refuses, because if anyone has ever tried to jailbreak an LLM even if human lives are at stake they refuse the request. Now literally millions of lives are on the line but the guardrails that your enemies dont have on their models are costing you lives.
What do you even do then?
AI will always have this issue where it will always pick the worst option for genuinely good requests.
Because the military doesn't give soldiers rifles with guard rails. They give the soldiers intense, rigid training, and then try to enforce discipline and correct use socially.
If an LLM is going to be important in that way (this seems like a very contrived way,) then it's in the interest of the LLM's host to make sure it doesn't have guard rails that would get in the way _that_ way.