VPN ban update for UK households as government looks at 'age-gate'
79 points by iamnothere 3 hours ago | 74 comments

kouteiheika 48 minutes ago
> the main thing that we've done is we've commissioned additional research on this because I've not been happy with the evidence.

Ah, yes, the existing research doesn't agree with our biases, so let's fund new "research" that does.

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embedding-shape 37 minutes ago
Full context:

> Ms Kendall told Nick Ferrari: “I told MPs yesterday I'm going to come back to the House with a statement on the issue of VPNs in July. There are very strong views on both sides of this. For some people, it is about privacy, and it is the ability to use that is really held strongly by people. And for others, they say they should be banned because kids are using them to get around. And so I— the main thing that we've done is we've commissioned additional research on this because I've not been happy with the evidence."

Sounds like they realize there are two sides and no "clear winning argument" in either direction, that's why the additional research is needed. Sounds a bit more nuanced than what I expected based on your snippet.

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Retr0id 22 minutes ago
What is there to research? Yes, VPNs can be used to circumvent geofences (and by extension, regional age restrictions). Yes, attempting to age-restrict VPNs is at odds with strong privacy guarantees. Privacy is a human right, and one which is essential for effective democracy.
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ben_w 5 minutes ago
> What is there to research?

The trade-offs and how many people care and about what specifically.

E.g., you say "Privacy is a human right", so why is it that half the websites I visit ask for permission to share details of how I use those sites with more corporate "trusted partners" than there were students and staff combined in my secondary school? I'm all on board with just banning this kind of analytics, but there's a lot of people who are more angry with the EU for forcing companies to at least ask for permission before they sell your data to all those analytics firms.

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gmerc 21 minutes ago
Good thing then that Democracy isn’t gonna defend itself.
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ranger_danger 20 minutes ago
> What is there to research?

Probably how they can best attach a license to VPN use like they're doing with TV.

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stranded22 3 minutes ago
Reminds me of the drugs tsar, Dr Nutt, saying that drugs should be legalised/decriminalised. So he got sacked.

Quite often, people in power don’t want to hear the truth, they want to hear their own words/views parroted back to them.

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varispeed 31 minutes ago
Obviously Labour has been "lobbied" and now have to deliver this for whoever wants this.

It's pathetic how they use sobbing families to push it through, similar tactic like before Iraq invasion.

same players behind the scenes.

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bloqs 15 minutes ago
This is pretty much it. Bought and paid for, or hand forced by intelligence powers operating beyond ordinary voter politics
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hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 23 minutes ago
Conspiracy theory^

This is happening worldwide: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_age_verification_laws_b...

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iLoveOncall 13 minutes ago
The fact that it's coordinated in all "Western" countries show it's a real conspiracy, not just a theory.
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hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 7 minutes ago
Oh yes like Indonesia, Malaysia and Turkey. If it is happening worldwide, it is less likely to be a coordinated scheme and more likely coming to the same conclusions based on current research.
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inigyou 8 minutes ago
Or maybe different people respond similarly to the same incentives.

For decades the tech industry (mostly Facebook and Discord) has been saying you just have to let us groom children, there's no way to have this tech and not groom children. Now the predictable consequences of that are arriving: the tech industry is being turned off, because it grooms children.

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joe_mamba 31 minutes ago
Isn't it how it alwasy works?
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nly 25 minutes ago
I've been using a VPN in the UK on my laptop and phone exclusively for 20 years, and the state has been working with ISPs to make "connection records" for most of that time.

On mobile a VPN isn't always effective in avoid geoblocks. Some apps are able to determine I'm in the UK and still ask for ID - reddit is one for example, if you stumble on to an adult subreddit. Using the web interface avoids this.

The UK has also moved to force ISPs to block certain bittorrent search engines.

The UK is not shy when it comes to invading your privacy or censoring the Internet.

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iLoveOncall 11 minutes ago
> On mobile VPN isn't always effective in avoid geoblocks. Some apps are able to determine I'm in the UK and still ask for ID - reddit is one for example, if you stumble on to an adult subreddit.

I've never had this issue (using Private Internet Access on iOS).

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4ndrewl 10 minutes ago
Some context - Birmingham Mail is one of dozens of clickbait-driven publications owned by Reach plc.

They're not a high quality source of news - they've more than decimated their journalism staff and replaced them with 'content' staff who are performance monitored on the number of clicks their articles generate.

Content is syndicated in different accents across their range of papers from the national papers, The Mirror and The Daily Express down into a large number of notionally 'local' outlets.

So, take it with a pinch of salt.

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farbklang 46 minutes ago
At least we get to raise the next generation of IT geeks because they'll have to understand a bunch of networking basics to watch porn, and might get hooked on it. (on IT)
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dgellow 19 minutes ago
Or they will ask their AI to do that for them, learn very little about the networking stack in the process
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varispeed 28 minutes ago
I am sure a contract with Palantir to find these miscreants is just around the corner.
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afroboy 17 minutes ago
Israel will be making kill on this, they will unleash their free VPNs to the young people like they did to Iran. UK national security will be like Suisse cheese
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reactordev 26 minutes ago
bruhghghbmphf, the VPNs! the VPNs! can't have those! What's that good sir? You say ssh? Do not shh me sir. Oh, SSH... yes, SSH, can't have that! It's elementary, any system which one accesses MUST report to parliament. Personally Identifiable Documents for General Evaluation Of Ne'er-do-wells. We'll call it the P.I.D.G.E.O.N. network.
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inigyou 5 minutes ago
It's never about the technical capability of the tool. This is a mistake technologists keep making. It's about what the average person thinks it does or uses it to do.
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wnevets 42 minutes ago
Good thing Brexit happened to prevent government overreach.
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hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 30 minutes ago
Better then performing a social experiment on children.
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functionmouse 24 seconds ago
don't worry they're still doing that
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shakna 44 minutes ago
Every corporate I know of, uses VPNs. Especially when workers connect from home. Is the UK government really interested in going up against the majority of their business partners...?
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inigyou 3 minutes ago
It's not about a technical capability to encapsulate packets, it's about whether people use it to bypass censorship or not.
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kdheiwns 38 minutes ago
Laws don't apply to corporations. It'll only be used to punish individuals.
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capexandcode 34 minutes ago
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rcxdude 26 minutes ago
It would not be hard to write laws to restrict one use but not the other. They may be the same tech but the use-cases are quite different.
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flexagoon 35 minutes ago
1. Age-gate social media

2. Children start using VPNs to bypass the ban

3. Age-gate VPNs

4. Repeat steps 2-3

Truly a masterful plan.

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inigyou 4 minutes ago
It's actually

1. Ban something

2. People bypass the ban

3. Ban however they're bypassing the ban

4. Goto 2

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Caius-Cosades 60 minutes ago
The great firewall of UK.
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blululu 43 minutes ago
Feel like there ought to be some Sinn Fein backed point to point connection in Belfast that leverages the Good Friday Agreement to get around this.
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fidotron 26 minutes ago
It would have to alter the voice of anyone on it to make them sound ridiculous.
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arrosenberg 48 minutes ago
Hadrian’s Firewall
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m00dy 41 minutes ago
Hadrian's Gate
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netfortius 49 minutes ago
There are few things more exciting, in relationship to attempting to restrict access to (data) communications, than a government which thinks geeks won't find ways around such. Now sit back, relax, and let's wait for the next generation of encrypted channels solution development.
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inigyou 2 minutes ago
They know they'll find workarounds, they'll just arrest whoever is involved in the workarounds. Law isn't a computer firewall, it's a loaded weapon.
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subscribed 31 minutes ago
Oh, they're in motion already. There are other countries that tried to ban VPNs for decades now, that sparked multiple great avenues of development.

It's exciting to think I'll become a dissident like my parents, just because I don't want a slimy, rightwing, greasy friends of Epstein and other known abusers to ID and surveil me.

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CPLX 20 minutes ago
Perhaps then you could at least vaguely understand the desire of people to avoid having slimy, rightwing, greasy friends of Epstein and other known abusers to ID and surveil their children.

I definitely see both sides of this argument but to pretend the answers here are obvious just means people aren’t being serious. Serious harm is being caused to children and just because that’s a known cliche doesn’t make it not a real concern people have.

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hashiman 29 minutes ago
It is so funny to read. They are so stupid.
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sowbug 29 minutes ago
Doesn't the UK already have geo-targeted age verification infrastructure in place? A website or app could require the user to submit a live video of themselves quaffing a local beer.
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wbl 6 minutes ago
Damnably hard to find local ales. I had to wander for hours last time I was in London to get Fullers.
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Kim_Bruning 33 minutes ago
At some point there has to be a line past which you can still get a clean network between A and B somehow. At very least for corporate, right?
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collabs 44 minutes ago
what if instead of this age gate or whatever government is doing, what if we simply said these big companies need to self police and if a child can reach their service they have to pay the child like lets say GBP 10k per instance?

remove all "reasonable step" shield to hide behind. for example, a shopkeeper can't say they took "reasonable steps" if they sell alcohol to a child so why should a website be any different? if we are going to the absurdity of age-gating VPNs, at least lets make it so that there is an incentive for children to self-report

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dghlsakjg 37 minutes ago
The end result will be the same. If you face a 10k liability for serving the wrong customer, you end up needing to ID your customers.

If the government isn't going to provide that service you end up with private companies verifying identity and the data security issues that entails.

If you want to shift the responsibility of protecting children away from parents, then you end up in a situation where third parties need to be able to differentiate between a child and an adult. I haven't yet seen a proposal that doesn't entail someone - government or private enterprise - getting access to identifiable information.

Of course, you could have something like a signed certificate, so the identity verifier doesn't see who you are patronizing, and the identity seeking business only gets to see your age, but it still has privacy issues.

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KaiserPro 18 minutes ago
> you end up needing to ID your customers.

You've needed to do that for at least ten years. Mobile internet either requires a contract, or an ID check before you get a sim (pay and go)

Anyone providing internets is liable for what the users are doing. The way you got out of that is responding to legal requests. (originally mostly copyright)

This is the frustrating thing, we have effective and relatively uncontroversial age gated network (mobile data) already. and it worked.

but now they've done and fucked it up with OSA.

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Aurornis 6 minutes ago
> what if we simply said these big companies need to self police and if a child can reach their service they have to pay the child like lets say GBP 10k per instance?

All of these proposals probably sound good to people who think the Venn diagram of sites they use and sites covered by these laws are two separate circles.

They probably sound a lot less good when you realize the law covers site like YouTube. The Australian law (which they said they’re modeling this after) also includes social news sites like Reddit.

If they passed a law like this extending to VPN services then you’d have to hand over your ID to use a VPN.

Usually people realize how bad these proposals are once they realize it might impact their internet use, too.

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mhluongo 43 minutes ago
Or perhaps we should expect parents to take some responsibility for their kids' screen use?
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harel 23 minutes ago
Don't be daft. It's not the parent's responsibility to monitor and care for their kids.
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SoftTalker 23 minutes ago
You expect the average parent to outwit Meta and TikTok and their teams of psychologists scheming to get their kids attention?

The social media companies could have done the socially responsible thing a decade ago and avoided all this.

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varispeed 19 minutes ago
How do you create new procurement pipeline and surveillance infrastructure from that?
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Swizec 38 minutes ago
> big companies need to self police and if a child can reach their service they have to pay the child like lets say GBP 10k per instance?

HIPAA has been super effective this way. As we all know, American companies don’t give two shits about user privacy or even security. But wave the HIPAA flag and everyone starts caring real hard and taking extremely cumbersome steps to comply with patient privacy.

Very simple: Each HIPAA violation comes with a financial penalty for the business and personal penalty for every person involved in the leak. Very effective.

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SoftTalker 20 minutes ago
I agree the threat is there but I've never seen anyone actually punished for HIPAA violations and my data have been involved in several hospital and insurance breaches.
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ranger_danger 16 minutes ago
There's not even a test for HIPAA compliance, so you can't legally prove you were ever compliant in the first place, other than you did what you thought was right. People love to use the term "HIPAA-compliant" but it's technically not a thing.

From my understanding, HIPAA mostly just says that you need to have policies in place for various things, such as rotating passwords or encrypting data, but it doesn't go into explicit detail about what all must be IN those policies, or how you enforce them.

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ellefire 42 minutes ago
Because they will just withdraw from the jurisdiction rather than bother to implement that, most likely
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ranger_danger 42 minutes ago
> these big companies need to self police

It's not possible to prevent a person (of any age) from reaching a specific website if they are determined enough. Full stop.

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collabs 39 minutes ago
> It's not possible to prevent a person (of any age) from reaching a specific website if they are determined enough. Full stop.

right, and that reveals the absurdity of this "age gate", doesn't it? because I am sure giving every UK national their very own unicorn would also poll very well but that doesn't mean that's what a functional democracy should be prioritizing just because a majority of the public supports because doing so is not possible

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CPLX 17 minutes ago
It’s not possible to prevent these same children from getting alcohol or drugs either but we certainly don’t permit it.
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collabs 56 seconds ago
yes and we do fine companies that sell alcohol and drugs to children.

lets give everyone an incentive to report companies that allow or encourage children to use these websites. the children, the parents, bystanders, the employees and contractors of these websites, everyone should get paid from the fines these social media companies would need to pay out for every infraction. I think GBP 10k per incidence is actually pretty cheap considering the alternative is life in prison for the CEO and the board starting with cash incentives all the way to prison terms for the CEO and the board

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kylecazar 24 minutes ago
Fwiw they acknowledge this and claim the goal of this regulation is to drastically increase friction, not render it impossible
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tombot 32 minutes ago
Glad HN is getting to experience the true level of adverts on “news” sites in the UK. It really is next level.
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nubinetwork 15 minutes ago
They can have their cookie, I'm deleting it as soon as I close my browser.
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arbol 31 minutes ago
Adblock??
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krapp 29 minutes ago
That will be illegal soon enough.
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specproc 37 minutes ago
Just moved back to the UK after many years away, and it's creepy here. Doing the elderly under terror legislation, some crazy kangaroo court antics, a frankly sinister approach to "online safety". VPNs?

The even more concerning thing is that we've got a far right party that have been leading in the polls for most of the last year.

This is a very dangerous situation.

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harel 26 minutes ago
While I do support restricting social media to younger minds, the way they go about it, and the collateral damage that will result is unacceptable. For about 500ms I thought I might have found the "one thing" I agree with this government, but nope... I'm considering whether it's time to leave the UK. There is an air of hostility here towards... well everything.
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chronogram 9 minutes ago
Where would you go to then? European countries, Australia and American states already have implemented or are keen to implement ID requirements/tracking for websites.
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RevEng 23 minutes ago
Funny how quickly "won't someone think of the children" turns into mandatory government ID for private services, banning necessary and secure (and encrypted) communications systems, and locking children out of access to the de facto communication systems of the modern era.

This is a privacy nightmare on all fronts and a horrible limit on freedom of speech. These kids will be learning how to drive a car, yet unable to contact their extended family over Messenger or follow news on Twitter. For everyone else, it means no anonymity or secrecy which has a chilling effect on free speech at a time when fascism is growing within democratic countries and dissidents are being imprisoned or murdered.

Yes, there are some really big problems with social media, but keeping children away from it doesn't fix the problems - it just leaves them for the rest of us to deal with. Let's fix the root of the problem, starting with the recommendation algorithms that inherently polarize people by building echo chambers around them and pushing divisive content all in the name of "engagement".

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varispeed 34 minutes ago
This is all about pushing Digital ID by the backdoor and building surveillance state for benefit of corporations pretending to be against it.

https://www.lighthousereports.com/investigation/blair-and-th...

https://institute.global/insights/politics-and-governance/di...

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emsign 39 minutes ago
Baffling how easy companies like Meta have it with politicians. Fuck them all, I'm leaving for the woods. It's been fun with tech but now it's just so painful,
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varispeed 27 minutes ago
They have it easy, because law enforcement is too scared to act or is just as corrupt.
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huflungdung 13 minutes ago
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quater321 46 minutes ago
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clear-octopus 22 minutes ago
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formit34 28 minutes ago
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formit34 22 minutes ago
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