Long Wave radio era set to end with switch-off
41 points by edward 2 days ago | 56 comments
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c74yn7v7k4qo

alentred 2 hours ago
That's such a pity. Building a simple AM radio receiver was a simplest and coolest electronics project to do with kids.

You need two transistors, a ferrite coil and a small set of simpler elements. And it is so simple you can actually explain what every part of the circuit does.

And then the reward... Once built you could listen to BBC regardless of where you are in Europe. My kids just LOVED IT, no Netflix K-Drama replaces this experience. My daughter was listening to BBC on her radio every night going to sleep.

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raverbashing 2 minutes ago
Look at this fancy pants needing a transistor for that /s

(but yes I do miss those simpler days - but I guess the basics now is making an Arduino flash an LED)

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danielabinav160 2 minutes ago
LW is still a fallback when internet and mobile go down simultaneously. Quietly important.
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Symbiote 24 minutes ago
BBC Radio 4 can be streamed here, including internationally: https://www.bbc.com/audio/play/live/bbc_radio_fourfm

Or

    mplayer 'https://a.files.bbci.co.uk/ms6/live/3441A116-B12E-4D2F-ACA8-C1984642FA4B/audio/simulcast/dash/nonuk/pc_hd_abr_v2/aks/bbc_radio_fourfm.mpd'

    vlc 'https://lsn.lv/bbcradio.m3u8?station=bbc_radio_fourfm%22&bitrate=320000%22'
(Links from https://garfnet.org.uk/cms/tables/radio-frequencies/internet... )
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jimnotgym 5 hours ago
I'm very sad to see this go.

I was listening to DAB in the car, not so far from here last weekend, and it kept cutting out. Whereas you could get LW everywhere!

I developed a love of cricket on Test Match Special from a very young age. A tiny inexpensive radio could get it anywhere. I actually never minded the interruptions from the Shipping Forecast, the real reason they kept this service up for so long. I know there are many ways to get a forecast now, none of which is as reliable as radio 4.

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Peanuts99 3 hours ago
Digital radio was always going to be crap, it doesn't degrade gradually as signal gets worse They should have just put all the money into a better 4G network and ran radio through that.
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fredoralive 43 minutes ago
Bit of hindsight bias there, DAB was first developed in the mid 1990s, ubiquitous fast wireless IP in everyone’s pockets is at least a decade, perhaps nearer to 20 years in the future. There are quite a few transitionary technologies that we needn’t have developed had we just waited for something better to come along (but without the R&D into some of them…).

(Also doesn’t analogue FM also kinda cut off fairly abruptly?)

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expedition32 6 minutes ago
I have a DAB radio and it gets constant interference. Meanwhile FM is stable. In the same set up.

Really soured me on this digital radio technology.

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gorgoiler 2 hours ago
Some things in life happen for the very last time and we never realize it. Where were you when Jim Maxwell interrupted the test match coverage, for the final time, to declare that “listeners on long wave will now hear the shipp-ing four-cairst”? :)

With apologies to Affabeck Lauder

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Scoundreller 5 hours ago
A/The real reason was that electricity meters were built around a part of the signal being used to switch between price tiers but recently phased out.
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bilegeek 8 hours ago
IMO, when the last LW transmitter shuts down, the whole band needs to be reallocated to hams. Realistic small-ish antennas are shockingly doable with a capacitance hat, loading coil, and counterpoise.
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LeoPanthera 2 hours ago
"Longwave" has no universally agreed defintion, but good news, amateur radio already has usage of 135.7 kHz to 137.8 kHz.

Building equipment that works on frequencies this low, and avoiding natural interference, can be extremely difficult.

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yakkers 7 hours ago
There’s still a lot of utility stations in the LF/longwave band. Particularly time signals (WWVB in the US, ALS162 in France, DCF77 in Germany, JJY in Japan, etc.) and NDB beacons.

At least in VK/Australia, there’s the 2200 meter band, but it’s quite limited (1W power limit, CW/digital only, 135.7–137.8 kHz).

At the same time, as much as I don’t want the AM broadcast band to die, I’d love an amateur band in the lower/middle part of MF/MW.

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bilegeek 7 hours ago
> There’s still a lot of utility stations in the LF/longwave band. Particularly time signals (WWVB in the US, ALS162 in France, DCF77 in Germany, JJY in Japan, etc.)

I meant just the broadcast band 148.5-283.5 kHz. (Though I'd love if 2200m and 630m were just a bit wider.)

> and NDB beacons.

Good point[1]. So 148.5-200 kHz in ITU Region 2 (and keep LowFER allowances on 160-190kHz as a consolation prize.)

[1]https://www.dxinfocentre.com/ndb.htm

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ErroneousBosh 2 hours ago
In the UK we have 2200m but it's 1W *ERP*, so you're probably running a good couple of kW to get there with any practicable aerial.

We've also got a chunk just off the bottom of MW around 475kHz, which ought to be good for long-range night-time communications. It's licenced for CW, QRSS, and narrow-band digital modes.

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toxik 3 hours ago
I hate to rain on your parade, but a lot of interests want the low-frequency spectrum. It will absolutely never be allocated to amateur radio.
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goodthenandnow 13 hours ago
That station is said to be one of the signals used by the UK’s nuclear subs to assess the state of the country in a war scenario.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letters_of_last_resort#:~:text...

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cebert 8 minutes ago
That’s mentioned in the article if you read it.
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jon-wood 2 hours ago
Imagine if the end of humanity is caused by everybody assuming somebody else told the captains about this.
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MonkZ 60 minutes ago
I hope they update their protocols
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2b3a51 3 hours ago
Suspect it is the Anthorn station these days.
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UncleOxidant 9 hours ago
List of longwave radio broadcasters - including those that have shut down. The shutdown list is much longer than those remaining (only 7 remaining).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_longwave_radio_broadca...

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leoc 11 hours ago
Radio Society of Great Britain reaction: https://rsgb.org/main/radio-sport/rsgb-contest-club/bbc-long...

Rather defensive press release thing from the BBC: https://www.bbc.com/mediacentre/articles/2026/radio-4-broadc...

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_whiteCaps_ 14 hours ago
Seems like everyone's shutting down radio services. CHU and Weather radio in Canada too :(
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mschuster91 14 hours ago
These transmitters consume insane amounts of power. Per Wikipedia, that's 500 kW of rated transmission power for this one [1], so probably a solid megawatt of grid power input.

At 30 ct/kWh, that's 300€ per hour, 7200€ per day and about 2.6 million € a year - for a customer base that is only decreasing.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droitwich_Transmitting_Station

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yakkers 13 hours ago
Doesn't excuse CHU: two 3kW, one 5kW ERP.

And by the virtue of shortwave propagation, it could be heard across the world. For the past month and a half (from when the news of its impending shutdown was revealed) I was regularly picking it up in Australia right up until the bitter end.

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ggm 10 hours ago
Wave skip? (Naieve question)
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yakkers 7 hours ago
HF propagates through skywave (most reliably from 5-30MHz), which is where the signal bounces off the ionosphere.

In the MF (AM broadcast) band, you can observe this at night - in Australia I can pick up the 50kW Melbourne ABC station (public broadcaster) at 774kHz with a good radio, just about across the entire country.

In the LF (longwave) band, the earth’s surface and the ionosphere start to behave more like a waveguide than skywave. This is actually more reliable/consistent than even HF, but you need massive transmitting antennas due to the large wavelengths involved.

HF also generally wins for distance covered per watt - despite the massive power of Radio 4 longwave, I’d have no chance of hearing it reach Australia.

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intrasight 10 hours ago
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reaperducer 13 hours ago
Is that emitted power, consumed power, or effective radiated power? Without knowing that, your power calculations have no meaning.

Radio stations are usually measured by the last of those: Effective radiated power.

You can have a radio station with a 50,000 watt ERP, but running only a 2,500 watt transmitter.

For FM radio stations, it's all about the height of the transmitter above average terrain. For AM, it's about the ground conductivity and frequency.

I once worked at a 1,000-watt AM station that had a signal much larger and clearer signal than the 5,000-watt AM station a few miles away.

I'm not a radio engineer, but I'm sure there are plenty on HN who can correct and clarify what I've written.

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BuildTheRobots 13 hours ago
Also bear in mind that Droitwitch is radiating 3 different services. Talk Sport (1053 kHz), Radio 4 (198 kHz) and Radio Five Live (693 kHz).

My suspicion is that this means an exciter and a stack of amps per service, which then go through a two stage combiner and out to the antenna. There might even be a pair of exciters and amps per service depending on redundancy.

The combiners (certainly for FM/DAB/TV services) also cause cumulative attenuation as the signal gets combined each time, so even if all 3 are radiating at the same power, the first in the chain might need twice as much amplification to make up for losses.

edit: MB21 (of course) has some fantastic technical info about Droitwitch: https://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/gallerypage.php?txid=1454&page... and there's some great pics here, too: https://www.radiorewind.co.uk/radio1/droitwich.htm

I believe they're still using a pair of Marconi B6042 transmitters (250kW each, in parallel) to provide at least one of the services.

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fredoralive 2 hours ago
As far as I know the medium wave services aren’t transmitted from the same antenna as Radio 4 LW, they have separate antenna, albeit with one of them (5 Live) doubling up as one of the support towers for the large long wave T antenna slung between the two large towers on site. Although I suspect the plan would be to move 5 Live to the currently unused Absolute / Virgin antenna eventually so they can demolish the long wave setup.
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mschuster91 12 hours ago
> Is that emitted power, consumed power, or effective radiated power?

Going by [1], emitted power.

[1] https://www.bbceng.info/Operations/transmitter_ops/Reminisce...

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asdefghyk 3 hours ago
Side Note - VLF ( Very Low Frequency ) signals (3-30 kHz) propagate via surface wave or skywave, offering stable communication for submarines through saltwater.
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nickcw 14 hours ago
The Droitwich transmitter used to transmit on exactly 200 kHz which I always thought was very cool, but it moved to 198 kHz in 1988 to better harmonize with European stations.

The program was mostly the same as BBC Radio 4 but it used to diverge at certain times of day. I used to be woken up at 5am every day by my parents clock radio with the farming news which was very dull, but easy to sleep through.

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mark-r 13 hours ago
Thanks for mentioning the actual frequency. The article says "long wave" many times without specifying what it actually means.
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LeoPanthera 12 hours ago
"Longwave", usually written without a space, is an informal and not well-defined term for radio frequencies lower than the AM broadcast band, which in Europe is known as "medium wave".

In the USA there have never been commercial longwave stations, though various WWV time signals are broadcast in that band.

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reaperducer 13 hours ago
It was my father's morning alarm, too. But he was a couple of thousand miles away in New York state.

That, and Atlantic 252 (I believe now long gone) were what he woke up to every morning.

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gavinward 13 hours ago
Despite the name I would not have guessed you could pick up Atlantic 252 in the US. The quality of it wasn't great for listening to music.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_252

"Although the transmitter was in Ireland, the signal's reach meant that it was often looked upon as a "UK national station". Reception reports were received from such locations as Berlin, Finland, Ibiza and Moscow."

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davidferguson 13 hours ago
Online stream for those without a LW AM receiver: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ugd8G5w-Sfo
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jmclnx 14 hours ago
That is too bad, you would think these could be kept active for historical purposes. But seems these services are all being turned off even though I heard a few were very useful in this day and age.
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cjs_ac 13 hours ago
IIRC, their operation relies on enormous vacuum tubes that the BBC can’t get replacements for any more.
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RachelF 13 hours ago
In some way it is short-sited, as radio is a good backup medium for global communications in case the entire Internet ever goes down.

Vacuum tubes also aren't vulnerable to nuclear weapon electro-magnetic pulses.

However, other than ham radio enthusiasts I guess no one listens to analogue radio anymore.

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phire 3 hours ago
This transmitter doesn't really have the range for reliable global communication, it's optimised for covering the UK. For the global communication usecase, there are other networks of military transmitters (DHFCS) that are much better suited for the job, and they aren't being shut down any time soon.

What it did provide was a simple but reliable way to maintain emergency broadcast to general public within Britain. And it probably should have been kept online just for that reason.

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hdgvhicv 2 hours ago
Very few radios can pick up long wave now. My car certainly won’t.

Even when they can most people Wouldn’t have a clue to listen to it.

There’s a reason LW isn’t critical national infrastructure.

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pessimizer 10 hours ago
They still broadcast on FM.
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dingaling 5 hours ago
... on a patchwork off different frequencies across the UK due to the poor propagation of VHF
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fredoralive 52 minutes ago
Doesn’t RDS mostly solve that for the most common case where frequency changes becomes an issue (car radios).
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jasonjayr 11 hours ago
I got my RTL-SDR to see what I could listen to, and by the time I tuned in, nearly all the short wave stations I could tune to were just broadcasting evangelical religious stuff, or other crazy conspiracy stuff. It's remarkable that these powerful stations spend most of their broadcast day transmitting that content.
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gerdesj 11 hours ago
We do spend out quite a lot here in the UK for the BBC. They could easily dump a couple of expensive presenters and use the savings for vacuum tubes, if that is what is needed.

No idea where vacuum tubes were invented but I'm sure the BBC could find someone to make them.

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andyjohnson0 2 hours ago
> No idea where vacuum tubes were invented but I'm sure the BBC could find someone to make them.

The BBC has just cut its budget by £500 million, in an apparent attempt to limit the damage from the latest charter renewal process - which determines its funding. The new director general (ie ceo) is an ex-Google person, and they seem to be pivoting to become a social media content provider. So I'm pretty sure that spending licence fee money on making vacuum tubes to broadcast a signal that nobody under forty listens to wouldnt get past a value for money test.

(I like the BBC and its radio output, and I'm one of those weirdos who still pays the licence fee despite never watching tv or any of the stuff that the licence fee is required for. But it is becoming increasingly lost to me: focussed on triviality and politically cowed. Sadly, I no longer expect it to last.)

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TylerE 2 hours ago
I'm sure they could, but sourcing people willing to manufacture heavily equipment/processing intensive speciality products for tiny runs will be MINDBLOWINGLY expensive.

This isn't about the little tubes that go in a guitar amp... we're talking about tubes that may well be too large for a single person to lift.

What's more, everyone who knew how to build things is either dead or in a retirement home. You'd have to re-engineer much of it from scratch.

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jstanley 8 hours ago
It's hard to believe that civilisation has lost the ability to build longwave radio transmitters.
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binaryturtle 13 hours ago
As long we still have DCF77…
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downrightmike 10 hours ago
I wonder how many of the Van Allen radiation belts is held up by this
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