Dupes took over the world
75 points by gumby 6 days ago | 65 comments

cjs_ac 12 hours ago
> When Deckers, the company behind fleece-lined UGG boots, recently took Quince to court over its lookalike boots, it tried to bar Quince from referencing “dupe culture” at trial.

> The bid failed, confirming that “dupes” and “dupe culture” — a commercial ecosystem built around providing consumers cheaper alternatives to name-brand products — are cultural phenomena here to stay.

> The trial focused on whether Quince’s shearling boots that really, really look like UGGs violated the existing patent for the design. And in a twist, the jury ruled that yes, Quince had copied the UGG design — but the patent over the UGG boot should not have been issued in the first place because the design was too generic to protect. The ruling opened the door for Quince and any other brand to make a similar-looking boot, opening up a new frontier for “dupe culture.”

UGG itself is a company that operates by abusing intellectual property laws.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugg_boots_trademark_dispute

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OJFord 12 hours ago
Seems wild to me they would be still suing to protect that patent in 2026 (or 'recently') – cheap Primark clones seemed to be the standard footwear of (female) teens & pre-teens in the 00s. (And they absolutely called them 'UGGs'.) That ship has long since sailed.
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superfrank 9 hours ago
Fashion trends tend to be roughly on a 20 year cycle. Uggs are back in fashion with GenZ

https://www.elle.com/uk/fashion/what-to-wear/a69924640/how-t...

https://www.vogue.co.uk/article/how-to-style-ugg-boots

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RobotToaster 8 hours ago
Came here to say this. Deckers UGGs are cheap Chinese knockoffs of the Australian original.
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t0mpr1c3 8 hours ago
They are not knockoffs. Ugg boots are a generic product. The Australian manufacturer does not have exclusive rights to the design either.
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mjmas 8 hours ago
A generic Australian product. But however Deckers owns Ugg as a trademark everywhere but here and NZ.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugg_boots_trademark_dispute

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t0mpr1c3 5 hours ago
Yes. In contrast to Mozzarella, Champagne, and many others which are generic products in the USA, and protected trademarks in their region of origin.

I didn't realise the trademark holder is a US company.

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margalabargala 4 hours ago
Champagne is absolutely not a "generic" product in the US.

While some California wines were and still are sold as "California Champagne", there was a court decision back in 2006 which affirmed the same protected trademark for Champagne as in the rest of the world, with the caveat that wineries already using the "Champagne" name would be grandfathered in and permitted to continue doing so.

A bottle of Champagne made in the US will be labeled with its origin, and no one can start a winery and start selling Champagne in the US. That's not the same thing as "generic".

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free652 3 hours ago
Champagne isn't a trademark and it's *generic* in US. What happened that in 2006 US signed an agreement with EU. Obviously everything can change.

https://www.ttb.gov/system/files/images/pdfs/rulings/2008-1....

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RobotToaster 8 hours ago
Knockoff may not be quite the right word, my point is they're a copy of inferior quality.
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bcraven 5 days ago
With decreasing quality of branded products, there's less to distinguish them from dupes.

https://ledger.worseonpurpose.com/

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Rebelgecko 11 hours ago
Sports jerseys are funny- they've gotten to the point where the dupes are cheaper AND higher quality (eg embroidered instead of cheap iron-on patches)
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secabeen 8 hours ago
That's because Fanatics took over the jersey manufacture and cut the quality. Fanatics sucks in all sort of dimensions.
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coldtea 8 hours ago
I don't think it's uniquely Fanatics. All kinds of "luxury" brands have been dropping their quality standards for several decades now. And not for making some mass market cheaper products, but on their regular supposedly "luxury" lines.
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uxhacker 8 hours ago
But as the Frankfurt School Famously said about the Mona Lisa that the copies make the original. In other words the copies give the original all the publicity to make it famous.
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coldtea 8 hours ago
They said that, but it was already quite famous for centuries. As were other paintings, not copied, and not involved in some high publicity heist like it.
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t0mpr1c3 8 hours ago
Solvair now make the real Dr Martens (in the UK)! The high street brand that owns the name makes all theirs in the far East. Check out Solvair if you can find them, they are better quality.
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marcus_holmes 2 hours ago
This is like a reverse-dupe situation. The people who actually made the boots (NPS, a co-op in the UK) never owned the brand [0]. Then in 2013, the brand was acquired by a PE company [1] who did what PE companies do and got cheap, nasty, versions of the boot made in East Asia.

So the "dupe" non-branded version is actually the original, and much, much better quality than the branded official version of the product.

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solovair [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._Martens

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throwaway219450 9 hours ago
Seems about the only kitchen things you can trust now are cast iron, carbon steel and sheet pans, because you can’t really do much to cheapen them in terms of materials except take them offshore (and most of the brands like Lodge are proudly domestic). After spending some time in culinary I started buying stuff from restaurant stores. It’s not always pretty but it tends to be a lot more practical. Glad Cambro is on there.

I’ve also started to pick up ceramics from local makers as there are a lot of potters lurking around. Often the prices are good, certainly comparable to the luxury consumer brands like Wedgewood.

Also we’re a Makita household, not because the usual options are insufficient for home use, but they’re one of the only independent power tool makers left. Most other hand tools I try and buy vintage/restored when I’m in Europe as they’re much cheaper than in the US.

Point6 as a successor to IceBreaker I didn’t know about. There are very few good merino companies and apparently their conglomerate also owns Smartwool.

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everybodyknows 9 hours ago
> kitchen things

Made in Japan: Gangy 300 can opener. No moving parts, just a handle of heavy stamped steel, with a stainless claw blade riveted on. Last opener I'll ever need. $12 online from the usual suspect.

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pir8life4me 8 hours ago
Sad but true, but sometimes the brand itself is responsible for this as they cost optimize production and offshore their products.

If the dupe market isn't doing it the wonks inside are busy selling off the brand name as fast as they can.

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aitchnyu 11 hours ago
Yup, need a new term like reputation hacking to use a good reputation to sell lower quality products or increase prices, sometimes from a new owner.
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matheusmoreira 10 hours ago
Amazing resource, thanks for posting it.
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morkalork 12 hours ago
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dgellow 12 hours ago
I didn't know WMF got acquired and is doing some heavy restructuring. If the quality reduces that would be really sad to see

https://ledger.worseonpurpose.com/brands/wmf

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sdevonoes 9 hours ago
I remember buying a Nike Tshirt in the early 2000s: good quality, and still looking decent today. Nowadays most of the Nike/Adidas/etc stuff is very low quality fabric and not necessarily cheap (at least in Western Europe)
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tennisflyi 6 hours ago
It’s not cheaper fabric. It’s “better” - lighter, stronger, recycled
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callmeal 2 hours ago
It's cheaper for the manufacturer. Not necessarily for the consumer.
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zkmon 3 hours ago
"Dupe" might need to be more specific. What is copied? Is it design, brand name, quality, parts or functionality? What is not to be copied? and why?

Dupe might affect the seller, but customer doesn't care much. In the past, people had to go by brand name as an assurance of quality. We have other means now. Reviews from other buyers, detailed specifications, return policies - all reduced the moat of branding. People can now buy any brand that has specifications they want, use reviews for quality assurance and it's easy to return the product if required. Brand is not playing the same role it used to.

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JimsonYang 2 hours ago
> what is not being copied and why?

Most counterfeits goods skimp on manufacturing quality. Like instead of very detailed stitching with intricate design they might just skip that altogether. For instance one of the easiest ways to identify dupes is if the brand name and design on a bag 'flows' to the other side. Obv counterfeits dont really care because they want to save money

For counterfeit goods that are so high quality 1) they would only show pictures of it, not the real thing and 2) only cost like 1/3 of the brand price.

Aka that $600 bag would still cost $200 if it had identical quality. This is all based on what business owners told me from when I visited counterfeit markets in China

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JimsonYang 2 hours ago
Do consumers care? Almost always not. But to say the quality is the same is incorrect
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Arainach 3 hours ago
We have nothing of the sort. Reviews are bought and manipulated at scale. Dupe brands come and go month to month. Very few of the electronics I've bought on Amazon in the last 8 years are still for sale, but for most of them there are current listings with the same pictures and a "different" brand name.

Most reviews that aren't fake are useless and written within the first few days of ownership anyway .

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marcus_holmes 2 hours ago
> In the past, people had to go by brand name as an assurance of quality. We have other means now.

Yeah, brand reputation doesn't work as a guide to quality any more.

But I don't think we have any other means of reliably identifying quality yet.

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4ndrewl 13 hours ago
For the vast majority of human existence 'dupe culture' was the norm.

So far this is just a tiny 200 year abberation.

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inigyou 12 hours ago
The centralisation is abnormal. Used to have one blacksmith in each village making clone horseshoes and earning a living. Now there's one company in South Korea that makes all the world's horseshoes and earns a million livings while each village has minus one living. And the guy who invented the horseshoe is sleeping under a bridge.
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nine_k 12 hours ago
Centralization offers efficiency gains, else it won't happen. Your imaginary company in South Korea likely makes a million horseshoes employing only 1000 people, and the horseshoes are good quality, and the price is like 5% of the price of a handcrafted horseshoe. Many more people can afford horseshoes as a result.
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inigyou 11 hours ago
Many fewer people can afford horseshoes as a result because all the money is at the horseshoe company.
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wat10000 11 hours ago
The opposite is actually true in reality. More people can afford X than ever before, for nearly any X that doesn’t involve directly paying for someone else’s labor.
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Joker_vD 10 hours ago
Depends on the overarching economical policies. During the British rule, the Indian textile weavers went out of manufacturing business and had to switch to sustenance farming, and then perish during one of the many famines. And the Parliament legally forbade the public relief efforts, such as fundraisers to buy and send corn to the affected regions, explicitly citing the concerns that such efforts would skew the market forces and unbalance the trade.
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inigyou 10 hours ago
What doesn't involve paying for someone else's labor? You mean things that are pure profit?
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wat10000 5 hours ago
You’re missing the word “directly.”

More people can afford to buy a toilet than ever before. The same may not be true of affording a plumber to install it.

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Joker_vD 11 hours ago
But think of the jobs! There used to be a million people involved in horseshoe-making, now there is only a thousand, and the rest of that million now has to do something else! And since there is literally nothing else for them to do, they'll have to die out :(

The most bizarre thing about the economical systems is that there indeed were cases where former workers of the industries that collapsed/disappeared indeed went the way of the dodo.

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nine_k 10 hours ago
It depends on the speed of change though. If a million-strong industry collapses overnight, it can lead to really painful social disturbances. If it winds down in 10 years, the transition can be much more smooth.

BTW see also https://www.edge.org/conversation/gin-television-and-cogniti...

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inigyou 10 hours ago
This is an intentional policy choice btw. You could just legislate the horseshoe company pays 90% of each displaced blacksmith decreasing by 5% per year.
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Joker_vD 10 hours ago
And hey, almost a million blacksmiths displaced is a huge block of voters that any elected politician would be glad to capture! Although I struggle to recall any of the examples of something like this happening in the real-world history.
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inigyou 4 hours ago
Just shows how powerful capital interests are.
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bruce511 3 hours ago
I always find this line of thought interesting. Because it implies the manufacturer has all the power. But they don't. The consumer does.

Ultimately the manufacturer wins the horse-shoe battle because they are cheaper. And the consumers in the village prefer cheap shoes to locally made (expensive) ones.

Fundamentally consumers like cheap stuff. Manufacturing shifts happen because as soon as there's a cheaper output, you've won. Consumers will reliably switch to cheap. At the start there may be some brand loyalty, there may even be a quality difference, but both those erode quickly.

Lots of people promote the idea of buying locally, even if it's more expensive. But it's a hard message to sell, and a tough one to buy. I'm sorry for the blacksmith, but times are hard and I need my horses shod.

It's easy to blame capitalism or factory owners or foreign cheap labor or any other convenient political scapegoat. But the root of the problem is consumer preference for cheap (even if inferior) to the exclusion of everything else.

This is perhaps culturally most evident where the premise above is false. In the US for example food is low quality, but plentiful. In Europe food generally costs more, but is of a much higher standard. Portions are smaller. Quality is more important than quantity.

This is not by accident. Europe has deliberately fostered local food markets, local food production, and promoted a narrative around history and good production. Cheap food is available, but quality food has a strong foothold.

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lotsofpulp 2 hours ago
You should share your crystal ball that tells you the future so you can help leaders accurately predict changes in supply and demand curves so that they can make better policy choices.
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cortesoft 11 hours ago
Well, the guy who invented the horseshoe died thousands of years ago.

And the idea that one location making all the horseshoes means each village is minus one living is ignoring the other effects.

Now, all the villagers can get cheaper horseshoes, so they don’t have to spend as many resources on shoes for their horses, and can now invest more into what their village is best at, and sell those goods to other villages.

Basic Ricardian Economics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricardian_economics

Of course, that doesn’t mean the blacksmith isn’t out of a job, but I always hate that so many people think the solution to that problem is to just give up the economic benefits of specialization instead of working to improve the distribution of the gains.

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pluralmonad 11 hours ago
I've come to view the goal of things being cheap as an anti goal. The biggest contribution to us speed running killing our ecosystems. Maybe all of us going without more often would end up with a significantly higher standard of living in the long term.
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cortesoft 6 hours ago
You do that by properly pricing in externalities, not by making everything harder to do so we can't put as much strain on the environment.

You are probably right that we need to have less stuff, but if we are going to have less, I would rather work less, too.

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wat10000 11 hours ago
Externalities must be accounted for. Once that’s done, cheap should correlate well with being less ecologically harmful.
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coldtea 8 hours ago
>And the idea that one location making all the horseshoes means each village is minus one living is ignoring the other effects.

Ignoring all the possitive other effects as well.

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NoMoreNicksLeft 3 hours ago
>Now, all the villagers can get cheaper horseshoes, so they don’t have to spend as many resources on shoes for their horses, and can now invest more into what their village is best at, and sell those goods to other villages.

And for a village that had 50 such specialties... they can make do with 49 specialties. Then with 48. And 45 as well. 25 eventually. But some day in the future, their great-grandchildren wake up, and there are no jobs. That Korean factory even ships in tractors, so there's no farm labor work to be had for the 200 who didn't have a specialty. But the food still costs money. And it doesn't matter if the village is gone because those people moved to the city, there's not much work there either. And maybe there are even fewer people to worry about this, because when the moved to the city, those people stopped having children.

Who is this good for? Is it good for you?

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xboxnolifes 10 hours ago
The village grew as the world got smaller. The world has one blacksmith.
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pfdietz 9 hours ago
Style seems to me to be one of those things that shouldn't have IP. Oh no, what happens if it isn't protected? Society spends less money on parasitic fashion?
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coldtea 8 hours ago
The real dupes are people without money to burn buying the originals at 10 and 20 times the cost, due to marketing convincing them goods made with the same materials, in similar (or even the same) factories, and often using sweatshop like labor, are somehow hand-crafted objects of luxury.
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samxli 8 hours ago
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brudgers 5 days ago
Fender makes dupes of its iconic instruments. If someone said, making dupes of Fender guitars is Fender's core business, I wouldn't argue.
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calvinmorrison 11 hours ago
There's an ongoing lawsuit with another guitar maker who essentially is claimng something like the fender guitar body is basically independently / evolutionarily the only good body style and that there's a convergence and so it's like trying to patent the shape of a saxophone or violin
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jrochkind1 3 hours ago
It's interesting you used both saxophone and violin as your examples, as they are very different historically.

Violins are basically ancient and evolved gradually over huge time spans, yes.

But saxophones -- invented by a guy named Adolph Sax and patented in France in 1846! It really was a kind of new thing, combining aspects of brass and woodwind instruments in ways that hadn't been done before. I think it's fair to say he invented it as a new instrument. (What legal protection that should get how is another story, I don't know that I like patents honestly). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxophone

Sax was really mad about manufacturers reverse engineering and copying his saxophone without a license and tried suing them etc, for the period before his patent expired, but it was still being copied a lot -- it was a new thing people were excited about. Once the patent expired, it was definitely a free for all.

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Dylan16807 2 hours ago
Either way if it's functional then at most you get 20 years of protection. What's shared in both cases is that you can't trademark the shape.
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dance2die 10 hours ago
I started buying dupe frags recently given how ridiculous frag price has become.
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justsad 3 hours ago
Yeah they kind of messed up the in-world economy by making gold worthless. I’m waiting for them to release an update where they finally have a sink in place. The duping problem should resolve itself after that.
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mschuster91 12 hours ago
Ain't no one got the money to afford the real thing, and influencers keep throwing the real thing into our faces.
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SwuduSusuwu 6 hours ago
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