Goodbye, and Thanks for All the Bikesheds
57 points by Ygg2 2 hours ago | 25 comments

andix 5 minutes ago
I don't think age restriction will impact FOSS in the long term. If there are some regulations that threaten FOSS now, they are going to be adopted in the long term.

Regulations for age restriction are understandable. A lot of modern technology is harming kids (and I don't mean dirty videos, social media seems to be much more harmful).

A sensible regulator would leave some responsibility to the parents, but require restrictions for consumer devices (smartphones, laptops). Maybe even enable age restrictions by default, block replacing the OS or the firmware, and only allow it once the age was confirmed.

I don't see a point of including all kind of OS or software into this regulation. Just the ones that are preinstalled on consumer devices, and commercially distributed to consumers. Once the age of the user was confirmed, the devices should be able to become as open as we know them now.

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Scaled 27 minutes ago
Didn't know ACM was anti-privacy. Glad I haven't paid dues in who knows how long if they're spending them to platform these noxious opinions.
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orf 8 minutes ago
Wow, you missed the entire point of the article.
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busterarm 23 minutes ago
It's not anti-privacy to point out the obvious that privacy-advocacy is sometimes at odds with governments and the will of voters at large.

Privacy is being abused by criminals to victimize people at scale. Just because privacy is a moral good doesn't mean you are morally off the hook for enabling criminals.

Governments are so aware of this they're passing sweeping laws against it. This is your new reality -- you can't just bury your head in the sand. The whole point was saying that there could have been a middle ground that protected more of your rights than where you're at now if it weren't for the absolutism.

Turns out that being an absolutist isn't helpful.

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Scaled 15 minutes ago
Age verification is not the will of the voters. It is the will of large political donors (specifically tech companies and religious censorship groups). It is certainly not the will of adult citizens who use adult websites, who have overwhelming shown in their usage patterns they will abandon any website that tries to do age verification.

Parental controls remains the right way to do age gating. It works today and has no privacy impacts.

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SoftTalker 6 minutes ago
Parental control does not work today, it's too fragmented and too difficult.
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failuser 17 minutes ago
The laws they pass do nothing to stop the criminals. Do you think an “age verification” law can stop any criminals?
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busterarm 15 minutes ago
The laws not stopping the criminals isn't the point. People are calling on their governments to do something and thus governments are going to do what they are going to do.

It's a mix of what they can do and what they're likely to do. They just have to be able to go back to voters and say they're doing something.

If you think that the fact that they did the wrong thing is an argument for not doing anything, you clearly are blind to politics & history.

And age verification being the wrong solution to the "privacy problem" doesn't remove privacy from lawmakers' crosshairs.

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WarmWash 9 minutes ago
People are calling on governments or Meta is calling on governments to preemptively deflect punishment onto everyone else for their own misdeeds?
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failuser 3 minutes ago
Exactly. Voice of the people if very faint, sound of lobby banknotes makes lawmakers listen.
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failuser 4 minutes ago
Governments can make effective laws, you know. There are tools that can solve this. Parental controls, separation of peer-to-peer communications from algorithmic feeds. The lawmakers are old, tech-illiterate people. You can tell them that a private Minecraft server is illegal and they will believe it.
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close04 7 minutes ago
The guy’s logic is “if only we had allowed a small backdoor from the start they wouldn’t be forced to install a large backdoor now”. Other technologies that were open to the law were endlessly abused for surveillance.

His theory is bunk, there is absolutely no middle ground to be had with the people who want a backdoor. There are no small backdoors.

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onraglanroad 5 minutes ago
I tried to give this a fair chance but it's really an incoherent rant.

There is nothing of substance here. You don't like AI, I get. But it still exists and pretending that no-one finds it useful is utterly foolish.

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failuser 11 minutes ago
This is a very strange read. If that was posted on a random blog, I would have dismissed it. I didn’t know that that cell (anti tech bro, anti big tech, pro age verification laws) in the alignment chart is populated by actual people. And by intelligent people even.

Also the fact they call it “age verification” when they clearly build an identity verification and we just accept their language is crazy.

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sealeck 29 minutes ago
It’s interesting to claim that the ‘tech bros’ oppose hardware attenuation and age verification when this will massively benefit them; everyone will be forced to use their operating system and the government will have exercised its power to protect Microsoft’s god-given right to make money, Peter Thiel’s age verification startup’s ability to collect people’s data and their ability to trace the identity of any critics through identity-based age verification.

That’s why large tech companies are lobbying in favour of this!

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zeroCalories 19 minutes ago
Lol this feels trite to say, but tech bros are not ideologically homogenous. You and the author are mixing up different people commonly identified as tech bros.
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evilduck 25 minutes ago
This whole thing can be reduced to "think of the children", see the literal example around paragraph ~30. I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone try so hard to equate being pro-privacy with being pro-crime.
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schaefer 20 minutes ago
From TFA:

> In this last Bikeshed in acmqueue, I will ponder the far future of free and open source software (FOSS), hoping to upset so many readers that...

> During the past couple of decades, rampant neoliberalism and “globalism” allowed...

And I’m out. I guess congratulations to the author. Mission accomplished.

But I’m disappointed that the article took a turn towards partisan politics.

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failuser 15 minutes ago
I don’t even know which party he champions. There is no pro-privacy party in America. That quote can come from either side of the establishment. Both increased surveillance.
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busterarm 2 minutes ago
None of the ones you're thinking of. PHK is Danish.
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ToucanLoucan 9 minutes ago
You should've kept reading:

> During the past couple of decades, rampant neoliberalism and “globalism” allowed the U.S. tech industry to capture almost the entire European IT market, including all “social media.” This has recently proved to be a ghastly mistake, and now the EU, along with its member states and companies, are scrambling to claw back their digital sovereignty.

This is not a partisan political statement, it's a factual one. It is simply a statement of fact that neoliberal world markets have permitted hyperscalers to cross national boundaries and provide the same services at scale to governments worldwide, and like, without even going into any U.S. politics at the moment, isn't that... really weird? Like many EU governments had essentially put their ability to function as states in the hands of a foreign actor. That's WILD.

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fzeroracer 14 minutes ago
There are some incredibly strange equivalences going on in here that make me think the person in question is indeed quite out of date.

The people pushing for the destruction of privacy and attested software integrity ARE the tech bros. I'm sure there are people here that will vehemently disagree with me, but we see the biggest tech companies pushing for age verification and we see founders and rich folk gleefully giving up their earlier pro-privacy stances in favor of supporting locking down identity. They're building up their moat in real time because not only does it let them kill that pesky FOSS, but also it means they can legally gather even more data from individuals in question.

It also goes hand-in-hand with the increasingly authoritarian bent a lot of those same people have taken and these resources will absolutely be used to crack down on minorities and things they don't like.

I think your head would have to be firmly planted deep underground to somehow not connect the two dots. As another poster here said, they're literally lobbying for these age verification laws because it benefits them.

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close04 41 minutes ago
> And before you ask: Yes, I’m laying this one squarely down before (and partly on the toes of) the tech bros: We could have designed our protocols to be minimally compatible with “a nation of laws,” but the tech bros insisted that compromise was treason, and, as a result, we will lose more privacy than necessary.

Ah, the famous “maybe if I take a step back they’ll appreciate it and not push harder”. Or maybe it’s “if I give the leopard my face maybe it spares my body”.

I’ll let reality speak for itself: look no further than Stingrays and every bit of legal abuse they enabled, where innocent people are spied on in bulk with flimsy excuses. How well did it work out when the protocol was already maximally compatible with laws?

There’s no “minimally compatible”, you either have the privacy technically guaranteed or you don’t. If it’s technically allowed to breach it, it will soon be done as a matter of routine under the guise of “protecting”, “preventing”, and so on.

So in the end we didn’t lose anything, what we did was we gained a short period in which we could all taste that freedom. If we used your proposal nobody would have had even that to begin with.

This logic would have been easier to forgive if it came from youth and inexperience, from someone who never got to know about the endless abuse of surveillance that was inflicted indiscriminately on everyone.

> I promised myself I would never join their ranks.

A wasted opportunity, missed by at least 1 article :).

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slater 39 minutes ago
> old men who had no idea what I was talking about but were 100 percent certain that they had the infallible answer

HN existed 20 years ago...? /s

edit: yes it did, lol

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0xblinq 32 minutes ago
Proof: site design
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