Some system apps are being overhauled, so that's something to look forward to. Gallery will be [2] based on ReFra [3].
[1] Except phone and messaging but that's the cell network.
GrapheneOS recommends Signal/Molly or SimpleX instead.
[2] https://nitter.net/GrapheneOS/status/2083724696722301266#m
Also, GrapheneOS supports device attestation (the non-google kind at least), which is still ridiculous as such systems have no benefit to people, only to technofeudalist corporations.
GrapheneOS literally has an app that uses attestation and isn't for "technofeudalist corporations".
Read that phrase back and then ask "is this the future of computing that we wanted?"
The likes of passkeys, essentially user-hostile ssh keys that live on your device but aren't accessible by you, would have been an unbelievable dystopia to us in the 90s.
"Linux folks need to implement the full stack"
Nah it's fine thanks, I'd rather opt out of corporate serfdom than compromise my principles.
Stop speaking for Linux.
[1] https://frame.work/products/fingerprint-reader-kit?v=FRANTD0...
You don't actually need biometrics to use key material, that's what (f)TPMs are for. They're not set up to be usable out of the box in any Linux distro I've tried, though.
What's stopping you from buying a phone, unlocking the bootloader, and flashing whatever ROM you want?
And I'm not trying to be snarky, if that's the only thing, it's solvable right now. Everything else will work.
And concerning "you can't just buy a device and install is" - android and iOS are far more secure than any desktop os, and both pixel/iPhones are far more secure than any computer (or any other phone as well (we'll get the third one next year)). GrapheneOS actually explains "whys" in their hardware support faw section.
Generally maintaining an os is a hard work, so that perhaps explains why there's not many mature offerings.
This is in practice only true of IBM PC compatibles these days, you really can't install any OS on modern Macs. Maybe you can on (some?) Chomebooks?
This is very useful on OEM ROMs with a bunch of scrapware, no one expects a custom ROM to have this issue.
If you're smart enough to buy a phone that supports GrapheneOS, AND install it, yeah you should have root.
And tools like XPrivacy and plugins allow control of subsystems like GPS spoofing and lying to apps.
Mobile phones store incredibly intimate data and are incredibly vulnerable to seizure. It stores my message history, pictures I've taken, so many other records that together would provide an incredibly detailed view into my private life. And it is on my person at all times, even through checkpoints where I have minimal protections against search and seizure like borders! This is not a device that I want a broad surface for modification of system software on.
So you're arguing the same technofascist arguments that Apple and Google both claim. I own my phone, not technofascist sky daddy, or whatever developer also envisions that role.
My hardware. My rules. More people like you need to learn what ownership actually bloody means.
The graphene team provides so much value already. I don't expect them to cater to every need 100%. They are a positive force in the ecosystem when every other Android provider is locking down their builds they still provide everything as open source with security updates as best as they can.
Why not root has been explained many times and you actually either want the official image with no root exactly because of the benefits, or you want custom image because you don't need these benefits.
For location faking Mock location works on GOS,l.
I see much bigger problem with not having a reliable backup than not having root.
I think the decision of GrapheneOS to maintain the attestation features and not providing user root is what gives it a fighting chance of being accepted as legitimate 3rd choice. See: Revolut and others adding GrapheneOS keys and trusting their attestation
Like or not, for most users, having root access is a liability, especially with more and more important things being held on phones . Someone downloading a photo editing app and then having a rootkit installed in the background that waits to empty their bank account is not a workable situation.
Yes, that would be absurd. Thankfully, that isn't how root access has worked in a very very long time if ever. If photo editing app requests root access... you click deny and uninstall it.
You don't even need to patch it, AFAIK. You can just install magisk, which is how you're supposed to get root on LineageOS as well.
It's not anti-user if it doesn't add the features you want that would destroy the security of the OS.
It has many features that give the user more control. Like disabling emergency alerts, protecting your data from attackers, contact and storage scopes (lying to apps for more privacy while retaining functionality), sensors permission, network permission.
Can’t you run an android sandbox in Linux?
Docker phone?
I’m sure I’m missing something here, but what?
postmarketOS and other projects are working tirelessly at bringing Linux to phones. SailfishOS too. Plenty of Android apps even run inside these runtimes.
App compatibility relies on apps supporting (very) old Android versions, though. It's also flaky in many areas and with how few Linux phones have decent GPU support, there's also a performance challenge there.
For some apps, running on Linux doesn't work because the app developers chose to only run on Play Certified, original firmware (Play Integrity and friends). Those apps cannot be patched to work right unless they implemented their checks badly.
Because of Google's cartel-like structure where OEMs get more profit by joining, Google shares some revenue from screwing the user.
> postmarketOS and other projects are working tirelessly at bringing Linux to phones.
postmarketOS has ZERO partnerships with any OEM, their device support is "as is" and done by volunteers, not by vendors like Qualcomm or Mediatek.
> SailfishOS
This one is interesting, but currently the "Jolla Phone" can't be bought "right now", you can order for October..
I see some hope in Murena too, they partnered with Fairphone / Gigaset, so the device support is real there, but it's still Android..
Not to mention that the options outside iOS and Android are slim and for the most part bad (or atleast simply even worse than those).
Because to me it sounds like a cat and mouse game that Google and banking apps are destined to lose.
The strongest levels require hardware key attestation (which, in my understanding, uses a certificate that's baked in secure hardware and signed by Google): - https://grapheneos.org/articles/attestation-compatibility-gu... - https://developer.android.com/privacy-and-security/security-...
Unless you know how to build a sandbox that can simulate a TPM with a key inside that only Google knows. Or something like that. I'm not an expert but there's plenty of information on the internet about this. It's definitely more than "the sandbox is buggy".
Haven't tried an emulator yet. Don't think I will - they're slow enough on my laptop, and I'm not interested in spending my time on reversing anti-emulator checks all day. And I don't like being forced into having a Google account, so anything that goes beyond a calculator app won't run anyway.
This model is attractive for almost everyone - Google, OEMs, operators and even governments.. the only side that loses here is.. the user.
This situation can't be solved with market forces alone, it must be solved by law.
I mean, it really sucks that so many people have made themselves dependent on this crap, but at some point you just have to stop buying the poison or stop complaining that it makes you sick.
The poison to utility ratio has gotten so high that it’s getting increasingly attractive just to ditch the whole thing. You either have to draw the line or accept that there is no line, and that you will yield any degree of agency in exchange for convenience.
For so many people, big corporations decide what they will buy, where they will eat, who they will date, how they will interact, what they believe, where they will go, how they will get there.
Multiple choice is not choice. It is the illusion of choice in a fully packaged life.
It's easy to have a principled stance when the only currency it costs you is your own convenience and standard of living. For many people, life is not as simple as that.
"Disabling" an app does not do that much, the OS can re enable it with an update or prevent you from disabling it.
I doubt there is true full privacy on a phone anymore with a stock ROM.
It's horrible. I don't think I can trust them to produce a Graphene phone at all, really, despite all of everyone's assurances.
I think GrapheneOS might have issues in the future considering that Android will be getting more and more locked down. People say GrapheneOS is the better OS when it just is hardened Android; it is doomed purely because of the Android base.
Perhaps a Linux based edition of GrapheneOS would do well, even if it will not have a lot of app compatibility. There's only so much patching you have to do to Android before it just becomes more work than good.
Despite it's name it can also block IPs and specific apps from connecting to specific servers. I use it to block all manufacturer and OEM related apps that I cannot uninstall through adb or disable. Very handy for blocking constant Chinese phone telemetry pings, as well as additional network level blocklists for ads (Pi-hole like), completely locally so you can trust it unlike a shady VPN.
I checked out your link; it seems to be a mailing list for a hosts file for telemetry? Why is there no option to just see the file without giving in my email? Not the most private.
I'll check Rethink again because all in all it's a fantastic software, just doesn't work very stable for me.
Whenever someone buys an unrootable phone, ask them if they enjoy living under HOAs. That's the same level of control they've agreed to without root. Framing it this way will neatly land your point and just maybe reset their concept of what they should have purchased.
Computers don't have to follow the same design choices as were done 50 years ago.
It doesn't have to be named root, the point is that my device should act in my interest to the fullest extent permitted by the law.
But those running illegal monopolies no longer fear the user and blantantly ignore their choices (yes vs "remind me later" is a good example), if I can't enforce my choice, I don't own that.
It was always a bit surprising you could uninstall an app in a "read only" partition
If an app is installed to both partitions Android uses the one with a higher version.
I'd probably get more useful information reading Hindi Telegram groups without translating anything
The modern societies run via those devices and the enforcement will move to the mostly free Internet that was "a long time ago, when it didn't matter as much".
From keyboards to phones to tractors.
The appstore will die, and the walled gardens will die.
Unless they use 'for the children' to make open machines illegal.
The six or seven percent of us that know how to use Linux will complain, but eventually I can even imagine bootloaders being locked down so much that you need to spend significantly more to buy a computer that actually lets you install what you want.
> many system apps run in the background after being uninstalled, but it's unknown whether they do when disabled.
Is this because some real system apps (as opposed to vendor bloat that just got the "system" flag through bribery) have components in the OS outside the "app" framework that genuinely can't be removed?
I've only ever used Cyanogen/Lineage or Graphene, so I had no idea this was a thing. I'm not surprised but ... WOOF.
I looked into the Light Phone and The Mudita Kompakt, but I ended up buying a refurbished Pixel 8 and putting Graphene OS on it, then I installed only essential apps I need. I keep my old iPhone 12 in a drawer at home and use it for anytime I Need any apps that don't work on a custom ROM, which includes my bank app (plus, imo, it's safer not carry around a phone that has my baking data on it in case it gets lost or stolen).
The light phones are a really cool concept but the Light Phone 3 is quite expensive (more expensive than a new Pixel 10) and the Mudita Kompakt seems to have a huge amount of grievances from users on their forum, so that put me off.
Shizuku + ShizuTools
* https://github.com/timschneeb/awesome-shizuku
if you don't want some system app running just "uninstall" (disable) it with Shizuku + Canta on any non-rooted Android, my current phone is the first one in 15 years with Android which I didn't root since unlocking bootloader on XIaomi is pretty much impossible, but anyway I can achieve pretty much same results with Shizuku and additional apps like Canta, Hail, Shizuwall, etc.
Potential benefits:
as mentioned, Android 17 prohibits uninstalling system apps, but allows disabling disabling apps is usually safer, and they could be re-enabled from Settings in some cases many system apps run in the background after being uninstalled, but it's unknown whether they do when disabled. Neutral:
some apps might get re-enabled unless they're uninstalled (or the opposite). Potential harm:
that would make it more risky for those who prefer to uninstall instead to save storage most of the already listed apps are primarily tested for uninstalling rather than disabling disabling instead, decreases privacy by not hiding apps, keeping the device unique.
We'll see what happens with the proposed ADB changes. Lots of no one asking for this, lots of people describing how badly their phone use will be greviously impacted, and seemingly very little discussion/engagement/justification. Maybe they'll fire the bullet anyways. https://issuetracker.google.com/issues/526109803
Perhaps the problem is our desire to have everything, no matter what the compromises are. Perhaps the problem is our inability to say, I'm going to go with product X even though it lacks Y because we actually own X. There is virtually no incentive for competition to pop up in such an environment since established companies have a lead of years, decades if you consider the size of the established companies, so consumers will follow their lead.
I don't mean to suggest that buying alternatives is a solution to the problem as a whole, but doing so may allow enough niche products to survive to give those of us who are interested in alternatives and alternative to choose from.
With each new phone, the first thing I do is initiate an ADB session to begin (a futile attempt at) removing all unnecessary bloat. If I thought it wouldn't be flagged, I'd print a list of the unbelievably superfluous slop on a stock Moto (or any Android), and Moto is better than average -- but my comments have been getting flagged a lot lately and it's not worth the work.
Each year, the process becomes more and more restrictive, and what was nuke-able last year, is immutable the following. Because it's much easier and not much less relevant, I will print a list just of the Play Services festering in the background, viewable through 'developer options'. See:
CrisisAlertsPersistentServices; LifeCycleService; SndDetectionService; GmcService; OfflineBeaconService_Persistent; ContextManagerService; PersonalSafetyService; AuthenticatorService; SuggestionsProvider; ReceiveSurfaceService; SendSurfaceSrvice; IntegrityApiPersistentService; GmsCoreStatsService; LifeCycleService; EmergencyPersistentService; SemanticLocation-Service; LockScreenService; SchedulerService; GoogleLocation-Service; GoogleLocationManagerService; LocationsPersistentService; DiscoveryService; Google Play Services
Disabling as many of those as I can, the phone runs fine, with the obvious exceptions, such as google disabling certain apps that depend on the background festival.
The last I commented on this, I was attacked for being anti-Google, or something. But when I acquired this phone, if I remember correctly, I bought it, not leased it. My first smartphone was from 2017, and was a Pixel. I was never satisfied with the liberties it offered, but compared to each proceeding year, it could reasonably be considered utopic. With covid, contact-tracing, or the components thereof, were hard baked into the services suite. And then everything in general just got a lot worse.
My point here is not to rant, even if I am a bit. It's more so me sitting here in a mixture of awe, and cynical awareness, beholding how obtrusive, anti-user, brazen, opportunistic, self-serving, and ridiculous Android has become, and how little can be done about it, and how over time, the user's ability to do something about it, has been progressively chipped away, and is now essentially nothing, and this is all, by general consensus, just fine.
And we keeping getting stronger and faster phones. Imagine how strong and fast these phones would be without the festering festival in the background. And maybe, think of the landfills, and lithium mines. Or, just freedom and dignity, an endangered duo near extinction.
"If we are being asked to delete a system app for just one user set flag so it disables rather than reverting to system version of the app."
... Joy. This makes the 'nondisable' list an even more unhinged malware delivery mechanism for operators, because you won't be able to disable the carrier shitware app and it gets updates!
It's time to start cracking down on malware preloads on phones and the over-subsidization of consumer products. We need to stop accepting $50 smartphones and $100 smart TVs that are crammed with a few hundred dollars of profit for the manufacturer to shove ads and malware at you nonstop out of the box.
All that talk about sovereignty, and we are giving full control of our digital lives to 2 American companies.
Only a few politicians, some of whom happen to be currently in power, in the EU or elsewhere, are pushing for those agendas. But fortunately, they do not represent the majority.
These things wouldn't go away if the EU or a company within the EU would provide a phone OS.
They would just serve different masters.
Andy Rubin was no saint, on so many levels, but when he was removed from Android leadership and the Chrome culture effectively took over this was always how it was going to go.
Just look at how many pay for music and video streaming services, when it's trivial to download anything for free from illicit sources.
No you don't, otherwise we wouldn't have banking apps on it.
I just know that the app can just be cracked - there are plenty of sites that do that for android. Because you can't just load your app on iOS - this is just not possible (well perhaps there are a few percent of some jailbroken iPhones, but that is neglibile).
On Android though, you can soon see such app stolen and on some of the apk warez sites. It just breaks the model.
Think about Windows and software privacy
- You have to setup a developer account with Apple first, and dev-signed apps can only be installed onto specific provisioned devices only[0]
- The free tier of that developer account is inconvenient for actually using dev-signed apps as a daily-driver, and won't let you use certain entitlements
- Apple's dev tooling is designed to make it feel like you can only sign code you're compiling yourself
On the surface level, this might seem like a big difference, because Android has a command that lets you load arbitrary APKs with no particular fanfare or ceremony, while Apple's dev signer is buried inside of a compiler/IDE suite. But people have built tools to make it easy to take an arbitrary .ipa, sign it using your dev account, and resign it once the free tier's 7 day limit expires.
Of course, this still requires you actually go and obtain an .ipa of the app you want to use, and Apple distributes App Store[1] app binaries[2] encrypted. That part requires actually having a jailbroken device to dump the app binary with. But once the app is cracked anyone can install it.
If you want an actual "uncrackable" app you need to put a critical part of your app's workflow onto a server, and then have your app send an iOS DeviceCheck or Google Play Integrity attestation that the phone is running the actual App Store/Google Play version of your app. But that's also incredibly draconian behavior towards your customers as it basically forces your app to be always-online... which is why a disturbingly high number of games do this.
[0] Yes, I know about Enterprise signing, but Apple specifically forbids distributing Enterprise-signed apps outside of your organization and those apps get revoked all the time. Signing with your own dev account is way more robust and that's what most iOS power users actually use.
[1] I have no clue if FairPlay encryption applies to EU-DMA-compliance signed apps.
[2] ONLY binaries - all your resources are unencrypted and can be downloaded off the App Store CDN and inspected by anyone. Code signing signatures do apply to resources, AFAIK
No, smart normies are sideloading with the 7-day limit and leveraging automation to have their pirated apps automatically re-sign and re-push. If you pay the $99 to Apple for a dev cert (or like $10 to a service that'll sell you a cert off someone's account), it'll even just sign out for the year for you. No screwing with Xcode or anything, just drag-drop-sign. Even gives you the options to patch the app out at resigning so you can do hacks and mods like the good old jailbreak days.
https://sideloadly.io/
It wasn't hard before LLMs and it's nearly trivial now.
> which are like you said handled
Also, I corrected your misstatement about payments. They have absolutely nothing to do with decomp, and certainly can't be used to dismiss the entire attack surface of a mobile banking app. Your example is complete nonsense.
You are really digging a hole here.
There's MNT in the EU.
The EU has enough tech talent to do it, but the political and managerial class lack both the strategic ability or the willingness to adequately reward the effort it would take, almost certainly preferring to, again, outsource the concern, and then be shocked Pikachu later.
Anyone doubting this should see how BMW think about their in car software. And that is for a supposedly premium product.
BMW isn't the EU government. Like I said, someone has to actually do it. BMW Actually Did It in a really user hostile way, and that's the best we have. Why is nobody Actually Doing It but good? Or why aren't we buying MNT products?
As is your comment. It is basically “someone else should do this properly and I will take the benefits” but not actually willing to put up the hard bit themselves.
The root problem here is the EU is culturally broken, and until some grand disaster will simply decline ever further with everyone involved wondering why no one else is doing anything about it.
Because kids, because pornography, because terrorism, whatever. This is too powerful an option for control freaks to resist.
What is so pernicious about the EU approach is the enthusiasm and efficiency with which it stops anyone from doing anything, while simultaneously attempting to regulate what everyone else in the world can do. If they put even a small part of that energy into encouraging the right thing to happen they would be in such a better place it is insane.
They said if the government “drive the process of forking” which could mean encourage a group of academics to do it, or a commercial consortium. It does not mean the EU government take on the task themselves. *
It is self evident from actual EU behaviour that any mobile os that gets to users will be legally required to be a surveillance disaster area, regardless of origin, and the only people that have prevented this already are evil US corporations.
* edit to add, the EU did encourage many technical efforts vital to the mobile phone industry at different times with a mix of funding, political support etc. The Arm people would tell you AMBA (a standard relating to SoC component integration) wouldn’t exist without this, and yet no one would classify this as “a creation of the EU” but very much enabled by them. For whatever reason since about 2005 their strategic ability in this area has not merely disappeared but become actively wrong.
Look at how they treat Graphene, and that is an afternarket mod niche.
In practice they’re the same thing.
And they need a plan to spend it.
But also, I doubt any polity would have its sovereignty undermined if their general-purpose computing hardware doesn't fit into their pockets.
Gonna have to post the storage dimensions of your preferred pockets.
And, for a nominal one-time payment, you can register as a developer, and compile, install and run absolutely anything you want on a non-rooted Android phone with a locked bootloader (within the constraints of the security system, which is, of course, A Good Thing).
Why would these corrupt bureacrats give up their full control over the lives of those who didn't elect them?
So maybe they prefer another solution to the sovereignty issue.
Note that there are competing political groups and MEPs in the EU from far right neo-fascists, to corporate lobbyist right-wingers, to Greens and even digital privacy maximalist Pirates.
Lobbyist right-wingers are now the biggest group and they pass laws like Chat Control because it gives the impression that they do something and it makes corporations money. EU has been founded as a maximally neo-liberal union. The broad human rights are remnants of the Soviet scare and world-war trauma.
Links?