Coding expertise is going to collapse from AI reliance
83 points by larsfaye 46 minutes ago | 79 comments

ryandvm 21 minutes ago
100%

We're already seeing this at the enterprise level. Companies have dictates from leadership that "if you're writing code manually, you're doing it wrong."

Okay, that kind of works for a while. We are indeed producing a shit-ton of code, but the reality is that engineers are pumping out code faster than the humans can understand and (honestly) review it. That sounds great until you realize that "hey Claude, read this Jira ticket and implement the feature in this code base" isn't really worth $200K/year.

This is all complicated by the fact that we're also losing our grasp on reality from the other direction because we have leadership air dropping AI generated manifestos on the product owners and product owners having to use AI to transmute all that shit into 1,500 word Jira tickets that are 10% necessary feature work and 90% LLM boilerplate.

So now you have software engineers whose job has changed radically to the point that the hardest part about being a software engineer is just filtering through AI generated artifacts from all directions just to try to get a feature out the door.

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ben_w 12 minutes ago
> That sounds great until you realize that "hey Claude, read this Jira ticket and implement the feature in this code base" isn't really worth $200K/year.

Nor even €50k/year.

Two things are true:

1) The coding part of my career is over. LLMs are capable of doing everything I've ever been paid to *write*.

2) My actual job also included non-coding work: Does this attempted solution even work at all? Is this solving the right problem? Even if it's a valid solution to the right problem, is it the best solution given the time constraints?

That last one, "given the time constraints", is a place where my experience is still useful. The AI is as lazy (or as optimised for fast wins) as the humans whose examples it was trained upon; but an LLM costs so little that the answer is always "do it right" rather than "do it fast". A lot of people don't know what "do it right" even looks like, having only ever known e.g. websites that take 5 seconds to load because of all the adverts and analytics, and never the world where machines with 1% of the CPU and no GPU at all could fit a fully playable first person shooter in the same memory footprint as that page.

At least, I hope this "is a place where my experience is still useful"; I may just be telling myself a nice story, same as all the other people through history who have found themselves obsoleted when the automation came for them.

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javcasas 15 minutes ago
My job improved significantly since I managed to get into their (managers) thick skulls to tell Claude to not be verbose. I'm tired of 1200-word tickets for "put the totals in the automated emails".
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01100011 6 minutes ago
TBH it was already pretty bad. There is a stark difference between the best and the average in my experience. The top, say, ten percent of coders are vastly better than anyone else when it comes to anything but boilerplate glue code(which is still needed and is better done by average coders anyway).

This is speaking from my experience as a systems/c/c++ guy. If you are a js web frontend guy, python, or whatever I have no idea if this applies to you.

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aledevv 9 minutes ago
I strongly agree with the concept that cognitive friction is the engine of learning.

First and foremost, it's an issue of "dependency": if you stop training the "muscle" of logic and reasoning, it gradually atrophies, just like unused physical muscles. You become dependent on external tools that replace a capability you once had yourself.

A historical example that brought about a similar shift is this: when the production process moved from the craftsman's mind and hands to the Fordist factory (and the assembly line), the skill of building things shifted from human craftsmanship to anonymous, structured processes.

Bit by bit, traditional artisans lost their knowledge and "know-how." Today, having a piece of furniture in our home depends on a massive production and supply chain; the "average" person no longer has the ability to build it themselves.

The exact same thing is happening to software.

We are the (now "former") software craftsmen.

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LandoCalrissian 19 minutes ago
The snake eating it's own tail for llm software development has really been met with a shoulder shrug whenever it gets brought up. At best you might have a small cohort of developers that don't cook their brains with AI and their reward for that appears to be having to review terrible AI code written by people who have cooked their brains.

Completely unsustainable.

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chojeen 22 minutes ago
I'm looking forward to having the same experience as COBOL engineers did after retirement: companies backing up the brinks truck to anyone with the skills to keep the lights on.
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xdavidliu 16 minutes ago
> backing up the brinks truck

now that's a phrase I have only heard in one other context: as an alleged quote from former Boston Celtics player Isaiah Thomas (who was really about 5'7 despite his official listed 5'9; yes, professional basketball player in NBA). This was around 2017 when he had just come off a career year and was soon due for a contract extension in the low 9 figures. He got injured and bounced around for a few years before eventually leaving the league, and never got that payday.

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snapetom 3 minutes ago
It’s commonly used in college sports where one school’s fan base argue for poaching a coach at another school. “Back up the Brinks truck” == throw money at him.
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bigmattystyles 19 minutes ago
It's like I said in another article, I've spent my life in C# and JavaScript. I'm a low-level programmer now, did even have to learn C or assembly.
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xyzelement 13 minutes ago
// The need for ongoing friction in long-term skill formation.

The subtitle of the story tells it all.

There are some people who seek out friction. Think about an athlete or a hardcore nerd.

The best engineers are ones who were fascinated with computers and learning as kids and persued it at every opportunity. Found their own friction in other words.

For those kinds of people, friction-seeking is the constant and what LLMs did is moved the point of where the friction occurs.

For example - the best engineers I've worked with didn't necessarily have lots of experience coding in assembly because that kind of friction was no longer necessary. But they could solve hard problems (and if a problem really required assembly they could go learn it)

What I think will be hit much harder by AI is the low tier engineer. Someone who was never truly curious and committed to it, for whom it was just a job. For example a typical offshore ticket pusher kind of person. That kind of person never went out to find friction and that's the kind of thing that's never going to fly again - if I want mediocre or average, the LLMs are sufficient

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vitalnodo 29 minutes ago
Saw a quote comparing pre-LLM code to pre-WWII steel, low-background steel, essentially.
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randusername 23 minutes ago
Does anyone else feel like the web has become so "readable" it is illegible?

I have such a hard time quickly reading pages like TFA. Headings, bullets, line-spacing, width, link hover animations, even the font. Even reader mode defaults aren't great for me.

Compared to, for example, https://www.paulgraham.com/best.html

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phyzix5761 6 minutes ago
I'm still waiting to see how LLMs have made the world a better place because it honestly feels like its done the opposite.
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causal 19 minutes ago
So far I think I have learned far more from LLMs than I've lost to them. I forget some syntax, definitely. But I now reach for a much wider range of tools that I have become familiar with because of LLMs.

So, partly agree, partly disagree.

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lanstin 8 minutes ago
Yeah, I have to say some of this deskilling argument sounds like Socrates complaining about the invention of writing ruining people's ability to truly own the text. I really don't mourn my lost assembly skills or my lost C skills. And I'm not missing the details of whatever web framework du jour my Claude is vibing for me on my extremely useful dataviz internal tools; and I have learned how to rein the agents in to not ruin my high-performance Go code and yet debug concurrency issues. Maybe coding qua coding is what some people find their summum bonum, but for me programming is instrumentive - to build real things in the world that do things to make something better. When I want pure virtuosity of intellectual construction, I read maths papers in arxiv.

(Not to say that the current state of the art with LLMs merits borrowing money for a multi-trillion spend on hardware that will be obsolete in 5 years, but for me that is a different issue).

The master decrying the invention that resulted in more wisdom for more people than anything prior:

"For this invention will produce forgetfulness in the minds of those who learn to use it, because they will not practice their memory. Their trust in writing, produced by external characters which are no part of themselves, will discourage the use of their own memory within them. You have invented an elixir not of memory, but of reminding; and you offer your pupils the appearance of wisdom, not true wisdom, for they will read many things without instruction and will therefore seem [275b] to know many things, when they are for the most part ignorant and hard to get along with, since they are not wise, but only appear wise." (quoting from https://www.historyofinformation.com/detail.php?id=3439)

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Zigurd 24 minutes ago
Coders should be treated as as well as as other software users. Tools like Claude code, Antigravity, and others are applying AI to solving that problem.

I know how to create a multi year P&L projection from scratch. It gives me some insight into how much capital a startup will need to get to breakeven. A good AI tool that creates that same spreadsheet in minutes should also be able to explain why different businesses have different shaped cash flow troughs. I don't think people using tools like that is bad even if they don't gain deep insight.

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toenail 31 minutes ago
And math skills are going to collapse from calculator reliance.
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larsfaye 27 minutes ago
Actually, they have for a large majority of the population. And fun fact: that debate is still going on, and the Mathematical Association of America (MAA) enacted a rule prohibiting calculator use in AMC.

https://ivyleaguecenter.org/2024/03/12/over-reliance-on-calc...

Math fosters critical thinking, and we've been in a critical thinking deficit for decades and decades. I don't think we can afford to sink even deeper...

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lanstin 7 minutes ago
Because the 1890s and 1930s were famous for their population wide critical thinking, of course. Good heavens, what do they teach in the schools these days.
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Ekaros 26 minutes ago
I have heard stories of cashiers being incapable of giving correct change. So yes it has happened.
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Terr_ 25 minutes ago
Not a proper comparison because your average calculator doesn't take over executive function. You have thought and decided what needs to happen, and identified one extremely well-specified and unambiguous task which can be completed by rote.

A far closer analogy is paying someone else (even if they aren't that good) to read your math homework and then submit some answers on your behalf.

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lanstin 2 minutes ago
I think we'll find that the people doing that, like the people spending all their time and energy reading slasher pulp fiction in the 1950s, won't be doing as well as the people learning to enhance the power of their education and their expertise via LLMs and strategic alternating between GenAI and thinking about problems. And eventually, if society ever steadies up a bit, people will learn the useful ways of using technology in school and youth; and we'll be glad to be alive to see such marvels.

Assuming we can re-establish the will for democracy and taking care of the whole group.

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gdulli 25 minutes ago
That's a very good point. People don't pull out their calculator in the grocery store to do analysis of unit costs or whatever, it's too much of a hassle for that small kind of analysis. But calculators have robbed us of the need to be good at doing that math in our heads. So the math doesn't get done.
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johsole 19 minutes ago
Many grocery stores will already give you a per oz or per unit price so you can compare pricing for different brands that have different sizes. It's a very handy feature.
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shimman 7 minutes ago
That's mandated by law, not because the grocery story wants to.
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musebox35 19 minutes ago
A more apt analogy is the diminishing understanding of assembly language and machine instruction sets. I love programming and something got lost in both transitions, first to high level languages and now to coding agents. I am quite sure some contexts will require programming by hand for a long while as there are still people who are writing amd64/avx512/sass by hand. I hope in time we will find new ways to enjoy solving problems with this new programming modality. By now, I am pretty sure it is here to stay and evolve from its current crude form.
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dosisking 11 minutes ago
> And math skills are going to collapse from calculator reliance.

People can no longer drive a stick-shift car, whereas it used to be that a valet would always be able to drive one to park it.

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lanstin 5 minutes ago
I also can't make butter by churning or soap from lye and animal fat or what ever.

However, I can use mathematica to demonstrate the criteria for various forms topological stability of solutions to many types of differential equations. I'd rather live now.

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tikhonj 24 minutes ago
Arithmetic skills. And they probably have?
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3qs12g5 27 minutes ago
Math skills had never anything to do with arithmetic. Maybe Ramanujan discovered a couple of theorems by dealing with numbers themselves. That is it.

Online discourse though is collapsing under dumb AI talking points.

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tired_and_awake 29 minutes ago
This is exactly the right analogy. Granted LLMs are a more sophisticated calculator and engineering is still adapting to this wonky/evolving technology. But to pretend it's a coming catastrophe is to ignore every past parallel development - where this has not happened.
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larsfaye 25 minutes ago
Math skills are at their lowest point ever in modern society, and many are still advocating for the reduction in reliance on calculators for this reason.

https://ivyleaguecenter.org/2024/03/12/over-reliance-on-calc...

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VCFundedGenYer 18 minutes ago
No.

With a calculator you still need to understand the fundamentals of mathematics. You also need to understand how to operate a calculator and know its functions.

Even when removing numbers and manual calculation, being a function or formula oriented mathematician still requires you to know the theory and functionality.

With an LLM, you don't even need to know anything other than asking the robot to perform. You don't understand the output, nor can an unskilled person explain it.

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miltonlost 30 minutes ago
"Mental math skills" literally did collapse tho??? "Math skills" to write proofs (which a calculator cannot do) is a fundamentally different skill set than that "math skills" of mechanically doing arithmetic (which a calculator does do).

Seems like critical reading skills have already collapsed.

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what 31 minutes ago
They probably have though.
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jckahn 29 minutes ago
Seems like we're doing fine though, yeah?
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larsfaye 26 minutes ago
Could be a doing a whole lot better. Do you think there's an abundance of critical thinking in society? Because math skills aid in that.
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r_lee 23 minutes ago
I honestly can't tell what reward there is for this "critical thinking" since the entire world is bathing in "AI will replace you"

what point is there to be a human calculator if nobody rewards you for it?

and I'm not talking about wealthy Bay Area tech workers doing it so that they can write their substack blogs but rather the average person

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__MatrixMan__ 26 minutes ago
When I look at the state of software engineering, "fine" is not the word that comes to mind https://xkcd.com/2030/.

If we're going to be the last generation that understands code at this level, we need leave it in a much better state before we die.

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EGreg 26 minutes ago
This is the same kind of analogy people make when they "poo-pooh" any sort of technological advance, especially with AI.

"Oh, that old simple device didn't displace anything, so this one which is now quickly taking over every job will be just like that simple one". So I guess people today know how to sew and knit and bake bread?

"Oh, humans were always needed, so it'll be the same this time." Is that true of horses and oxen after cars and tractors were invented?

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Forgeties79 30 minutes ago
Your calculator isn’t designed to keep you addicted to it and doesn’t have baked in orders like “be humorous and irreverent when appropriate.”

Also, yes I am dependent on a calculator.

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GuB-42 23 minutes ago
> it and doesn’t have baked in orders like “be humorous and irreverent when appropriate.”

It does, you just have to enter the number "5318008" :)

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catchnear4321 29 minutes ago
1) have they not? 2) not a level comparison
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fechols 11 minutes ago
"Assembly expertise is going to collapse from compiler reliance".
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yoyohello13 2 minutes ago
Did this not happen?
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VCFundedGenYer 21 minutes ago
I'm seeing it happen in real time. I've seen several folks claim they "vibe-coded" something and upon review it's some seriously low quality garbage. Unfortunately it's just "functional enough" where it's encouraging the one who talked to the robot to continue thinking they can code for some reason.

It is important to ensure that any LLM code is named and shamed.

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micromacrofoot 24 minutes ago
Very few people know how to hand set typography anymore, but many of the conventions still exist and people don't have to understand the origin of a lot of them to use them properly.
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waffletower 26 minutes ago
Coding expertise is going to collapse from compiler reliance (1985 Turbo Pascal detractors)
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larsfaye 24 minutes ago
Do you think LLMs and compilers have a lot of overlap?
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sampullman 17 minutes ago
In an abstract sense, yes. Compilers let programmers work at a higher level of abstraction. LLMs bring it to an even higher level, though the abstraction is much leakier.

For the time being, a good understanding of programming and domain knowledge gets you much farther than without it. There might not be room for as many (professional) programmers as before, though.

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deaton 27 minutes ago
Going to? It already is.
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j45 27 minutes ago
It may bifurcate the average skill from the skill of figuring out new solutions.
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causal 20 minutes ago
Yeah I'm not convinced people are just going to give up solving problems
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paul7986 32 minutes ago
Are engineers still making 100s of thousands a year still just for vibe coding while a nurse and other skilled / highly trained medical professionals working their butt off make half of that?

Do we think there is going to be a correction for the vibe coders?

Pardon I know such question is controversial but thinking ahead.

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kxyvr 45 seconds ago
While it depends on the market, job, and hours, but the bedside nurses I know make in the low $100k range. Typical shift structure at the hospital is three 12 hour shifts in a row and then four days off. Most of the time, they are union jobs, so they receive many benefits from collective bargaining such as increased holiday and overtime pay in the range of 1.5-2x normal rate. A nurse practitioner tends to make something in the 180-220k realm.

Again, to be clear, this is highly dependent on the market, job, and hours and one needs to understand the difference between a CNA, RN, NP, etc. However, it's a regulated typically union job that's very secure and in high demand. It probably pays more than what you expect.

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nemomarx 30 minutes ago
There's something weird about nurse pay where it doesn't seem to raise even during large shortages of qualified nurses. I think it's artificially lowered by hospital admin, with temporary traveling nurses acting as "scabs" to avoid the normal wage increasing
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Ekaros 15 minutes ago
It is weird how it works with anyone there but the doctors... Do they have some type of cartel or mafia that nurses and other staff don't have?
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agileAlligator 29 minutes ago
The Labor Theory of Value was defeated decades ago, get with the times
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harimau777 4 minutes ago
Unfortunately, we haven't found a better alternative.
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swader999 30 minutes ago
I'm solving harder and harder problems for real users/customers than I was a year ago and our sales are increasing as a result.
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paul7986 29 minutes ago
Are you saving lives?
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ok_dad 22 minutes ago
Is it my job to make sure that nurses are paid more than I am?

I'll readily admit that they deserve it, I'm a lazy dickhead and they help people, but I think your blame is misplaced if you're insinuating that software engineers are to blame for nurses being paid less than ourselves.

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paul7986 3 minutes ago
It's ok if you haven't felt the same financial pain from AI as I have. Unfortunately its coming for so many (not necessarily yourself) as the point of my post is anyone can type to create things like graphics, websites, mobile apps, etc. It is slowly becoming a race to the bottom with so many being able to flood our once great field as little skill is now required.

Overall, I start my clinical rotation at a hospital in September starting at the bottom at $18 an hour from $90 in tech. But you got to start at the bottom as I did in tech at $12.50 an hour in 2009. RIP my tech career 2009 to 2026.

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encoderer 28 minutes ago
I think nurses in the Bay Area make like 200k a year
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lifestyleguru 13 minutes ago
Don't you worry about salaries of any trained medical professionals:)
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teaearlgraycold 28 minutes ago
The effort/pay ratio never made sense though.
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add-sub-mul-div 26 minutes ago
I'm also concerned about people asking an opaque machine for an answer and stopping there instead of going to different sources, evaluating their credibility, exercising their own ability to construct their own worldview from disparate facts and opinions.
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rvz 23 minutes ago
Ah yes. Selling courses is the oldest grift in town, which is what the author here is doing.
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GiorgioG 35 minutes ago
I learned BASIC, Pascal and x86 Assembly language by the age of 14-15. None of which I remember (nor care to). The strict instructions (aka language) we gave the compiler was not the point. Those experiences taught me how to think logically, and over time develop a taste/structure for how software should be built, as well as foot guns to avoid. I don't know how you teach that without coding, but the "coding expertise" was always a means to an end. LLMs are just another abstraction layer above programming languages, machine language, etc.
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larsfaye 30 minutes ago
> I don't know how you teach that without coding

That's the neat part: you don't!

Even Robert "Uncle Bob" Martin, who's as AI pilled as they come and doesn't read code any longer, says that junior developers shouldn't even look at AI tooling for the first three years:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxxxGkFIUJ0&t=1356s

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GiorgioG 10 minutes ago
Robert Martin has caused me so much frustration over the years, but he's spot on. "Young people with power tools tend to lose fingers"...I like that!
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Zigurd 19 minutes ago
In contrast with Pascal, I could see in my mind the PDP-11 instructions behind my C code. By the time I started running code on x86, there were debuggers that could step through source code, and I didn't really want to think like an i386.
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nemomarx 26 minutes ago
We don't teach kids math with access to calculators, and so on. Making students code by hand at first is a very moderate proposition
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philote 14 minutes ago
Yeah I was taught coding in a fake programming language so it couldn't be compiled or run. It really was "by hand" coding since we had written tests.
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alexjplant 29 minutes ago
> LLMs are just another abstraction layer above programming languages, machine language, etc.

Programming languages are (largely) deterministic. LLMs are not. The boundary between an abstract concept and something executable sits comfortably in the mind of the programmer in non-LLM contexts. This boundary shifts when using an LLM and becomes shared between the programmer and the matrix multiplication machine.

The "layer of abstraction" analogy is therefore technically true but essentially false. "Just another" papers over how seismic of a paradigm shift all of this is.

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sleepgummies 16 minutes ago
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faislopids 34 minutes ago
[flagged]
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monkpit 32 minutes ago
Not to mention the idea in the article has kinda been beaten to death
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throwawayqqq11 24 minutes ago
Not quite, but maybe some day, an AI company will succeed in cornering the market of competence to haul in their impossible returns.
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wonnage 28 minutes ago
It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it
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