Go grandmaster Shin defeats AI KataGo with a two-stone handicap
99 points by gmays 21 hours ago | 25 comments

rao-v 16 hours ago
It’s worth understanding that Shin Jinse has been significantly stronger than his nearest human opponents for a while now, more so than Magnus was even at his very peak.

In go ELO like scoring he’s something like 120 points over the next strongest player. No other player has ever broken a 3800 rating let alone 3850. Ke Jie (the previous long time champion) peaked at 3755. Shin Jinseo’s strength graph is the most absurd straight line.

https://www.goratings.org/en/

2 stones is historically the gap between a 9P ranked and a 1P ranked professional player (very roughly the gap between super grandmasters and an almost grandmaster)

That is to say it’s shocking that Katago (almost certainly significantly stronger than AlphaGo) is a mere 2 stones stronger than Shin Jinseo. I suspect it would be 3-4 stones vs any other human pro.

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ninju 3 hours ago
Deep link to Shin Jinseo's strength graph

https://www.goratings.org/en/players/1313.html

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afthonos 24 minutes ago
Important to note that KataGo was double-handicapped. 20 seconds per move maximum; it couldn’t read deep. Against an amateur, it doesn’t matter, but against a historically strong pro it matters a lot.
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saucymew 3 hours ago
For a non-Go player, do you think this trend will persist, or is it more of a dead-cat/human bounce?
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rudi-c 2 hours ago
On one hand, Shin Jinseo is an outlier player of this generation. On the other hand, the newest generation of new pros will have exclusively learned by using the AI to tell them what the best move is, so there's reason to believe that peak human level has yet to be reached.
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loglog 18 minutes ago
Distillation of our blessed models is no fair!
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rao-v 53 minutes ago
Could someone sufficiently motivated invest in training Katago to be able to beat Shin Jinseo with 3 stones of handicap? Unfortunately - probably yes.

This in no way detracts from how absurd and remarkable it is that Shin Jinseo can beat KataGo (it gets a LOT of training and architecture refinements https://katagotraining.org/#eloGraphButtons) with 2 stones of handicap.

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thangalin 2 hours ago
In Go, there are exchanges of plays called "joseki". Professionals consider the outcome of joseki to be an equal result for both players. Most joseki are only a handful of moves, but some, such as the "flying knife" joseki have variations that continue for upwards of 50 moves. A traditional 19x19 go board has 361 intersections.

Shin's genius was to play out a complex variation of the flying knife joseki that was, in essence, a one-way path to reach an equal board position that occupied about 1/4 of the board. Due to the 2-stone handicap, the position favoured black with the game ~25% complete. KataGo could not have played any other way, where a human may have tried to foil the plan by introducing further complications.

What was truly incredible was how Shin held the advantage from that point on.

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xhevahir 29 minutes ago
> "This series taught me that rather than trying to imitate AI, it is far more important to build the board according to my own style."

It's never made sense to me that so many go players study AI go play in the hope of emulating it in a human game. We're not machines. We can't do thousands of Monte Carlo tree searches per second.

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shric 19 hours ago
For those who don’t follow human vs AI Go (I don’t), this is with a 2 stone handicap in favor of the human which is apparently standard.
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leethargo 14 hours ago
Yes, so calling it a "defeat" is improper to me.
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kadoban 3 hours ago
The headline is misleading, but this is still huge. 2 stones against katago is insane, I'd never have guessed we'd see that, ever.
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bulletmarker 33 minutes ago
Annoyingly misleading. I read it that the human player was handicapped.
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dlevine 18 hours ago
Apparently 2 stones is a huge advantage. An estimate is that the computer is roughly 4-600 ELO stronger on an even match.

Also, the human played a strategy tailored to that huge initial advantage. He said that the AI did not handle this particularly well, and played high probability moves instead of trying to lure him into a mistake.

Also, even though this was the best Go engine, it was not running on a supercomputer, and had a relatively limited amount of time per move.

So, this was an important victory for a human, but not a sign that humans are now stronger than AIs at Go.

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kadoban 3 hours ago
> Also, the human played a strategy tailored to that huge initial advantage. He said that the AI did not handle this particularly well, and played high probability moves instead of trying to lure him into a mistake.

Yeah, katago's training is not really focused at all on handicap games, because it's by nature learning from even games against similar-strength opponents.

It doesn't have specific training from playing in a way to exploit a weaker player. In a handicap game you have to give your opponent opportunities to fuck up if you want to play optimally.

If a move loses 0.0005 points if the opponent plays optimally, katago won't play it even if there's ~zero chance a weaker player would play it right.

There have been go AIs that tried to train more directly on uneven opponents, one called "sai" comes to mind, but katago has huge advantages otherwise and won out over the others (for very good reason, it's a great project).

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rudi-c 2 hours ago
While AlphaGo originally only had win rate as a metric, modern Go AIs have more knobs, including an evaluation of "complexity".

Just stating this off the top of my head so I could be misremembering, but I heard that the KataGo settings used were tweaked to favor complexity. This was most apparent in Game 1 which Shin Jinseo lost, where the AI had an unusual opening. However, the last game was quite plain leading me to wonder whether that setting was present in the last game (or at all).

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wslh 2 hours ago
> So, this was an important victory for a human, but not a sign that humans are now stronger than AIs at Go.

Another way to look at this: Go's handicap system gives us a genuinely interesting metric for the distance between a human and a machine at this specific game. Instead of just "computers beat humans" we get a quantified gap.

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joelthelion 20 minutes ago
Is there an equivalent of LeelaKnightOdds for Go? That might be harder to tackle.
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dombiscoff 9 hours ago
What I found interesting was that he adapted and shifted to a very unconventional strategy of play, opposed to the AI who primarily seems to play high probability moves. Does this not demonstrate the human edge against AI in novel / unconventional thinking?
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AceJohnny2 2 hours ago
The fact that it's news that a human beat an AI, post-AlphaGo, demonstrates the current norm.
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bluecalm 2 hours ago
KataGo isn't very good at exploiting weaker opponents. In chess people were convinced a grandmaster can never be beaten with a knight odds. It's just too easy to simplify the position and win. It was very easy (for a grandmaster) vs already super human Stockfish. It was still kinda easy (for a strong GM) vs 200+ ELO stronger NNUE Stockfish. And then someone made a net optimized for exploiting humans. Its games are amazing and it beats GMs with knight odds with ease. It's unreal how good it is at setting traps, playing lines that don't work in theory but the refutation is based on precise tactical sequence a few moves deep. Playing vs it feels like playing vs a spider that slowly weaves a net around you till you can't move anymore.

I predict the same thing is going to happen in Go once the engines catch up.

(You can play those chess bots on Lichess for free. Challenge LeelaQueenOdds or LeelaRookOdds if you are master level or stronger)

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lunchbucket 59 minutes ago
We're so back
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hirshi 19 hours ago
I'm struggling to believe it's not good enough to beat a mere mortal.
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noknownsender 7 hours ago
This was with a two-stone advantage for the strongest-ever human player, apparently.
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adamrezich 32 minutes ago
For all four of you that are like me and understand Dota 2 a lot better than Go, and are wondering what impact a “two-stone handicap” has and what it means, ChatGPT Pro claims that to analogize this scenario to a professional team playing against OpenAI Five:

> The professional human team begins from a legal eight-to-ten-minute game state in which it has decisively won the laning stage: roughly a 6,000–8,000 team-net-worth lead, a 4,000–6,000 team-XP lead, two enemy Tier 1 towers destroyed, the third badly damaged, and all three friendly Tier 1 towers standing.

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