Hitachi launches CO2 heat pump water heaters with solar-friendly tariff controls
91 points by thelastgallon 23 hours ago | 63 comments

kalleboo 20 minutes ago
I live in Japan and last year when we moved from an apartment to a house we installed a Mitsubishi EcoCute heat pump water heater which already has these features.

We have one of the "all-denka" electric plans, where we trade off cheap rates during solar hours for expensive rates during duck curve hours. By having the hot water only run during cheap hours, and having the aircon turned off/down during the expensive hours, we're paying less in energy for our all-electric house than we did in combined electric+gas in our 3x smaller apartment.

We pay approx (before fees, and the rates change slightly by season):

* 8 AM - 10 AM: 35 yen/kWh

* 10 AM - 4 PM: 13 yen/kWh

* 4 PM - 6 PM: 35 yen/kWh

* 6 PM - 8 AM: 18 yen/kWh (on a standard plan this is the rate you're paying 24/7)

Our Mitsubishi has other nice features like it can recirculate the water in the bath through a heat exchanger after you already filled it and got in, so it will keep the water from cooling down to lukewarm, and you can even adjust the bath water temperature if you ended up with filling it with too warm or too cold water. Of course, there's also an app so you can start filling up the bathtub when you leave work for home so a hot bath is waiting for you. There's also an intercom to the kitchen "so mom can tell the kids to get out of the bath, dinner is ready".

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koolba 9 minutes ago
> Our Mitsubishi has other nice features like it can recirculate the water in the bath through a heat exchanger after you already filled it and got in, so it will keep the water from cooling down to lukewarm, and you can even adjust the bath water temperature if you ended up with filling it with too warm or too cold water.

How long do you sit in a bath?

> Of course, there's also an app so you can start filling up the bathtub when you leave work for home so a hot bath is waiting for you.

My immediate reaction to this is, “there’s a way for my house to be remotely flooded”.

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kalleboo 3 minutes ago
> How long do you sit in a bath?

We love our baths here in Japan

> My immediate reaction to this is, “there’s a way for my house to be remotely flooded”.

I forgot to mention that it senses and automatically stops filling the bath at a select number of liters, even if you start a bath using the physical button when you're at home.

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gandreani 8 minutes ago
Holy crap that re-circulation feature is luxurious!

I'd love to have something like that!

Whenever I take a hot shower I fantasize about putting in a liquid-to-liquid heat exchanger so the hot water can heat up the cold water and you can run the hot water at a much lower temperature.

This application with the bath tub feels way more justified.

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kalleboo 2 minutes ago
And this is the builder-grade model we got from the house renovation company. There are higher grade ones with fancier stuff...
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thelastgallon 51 seconds ago
Some background info for context. (for those that may not be familiar).

Heat pump conjures up an image of an appliance, but it is a principle of physics. Heat can be created by burning fuel, or electric resistance. Cold can't be created, cold is the lack (or removal) of heat. Fridge keeps cool by moving heat from inside, dumping it outside. This movement of heat is called heat pump (pumping heat from one direction to another).

If we can do this for cold, we can also do this for heat. After all, we always have heat in the environment until we get to 0 degree kelvin. Which means we can have heat pump water heater in the garage. Or heat pump furnace.

Creating heat from fuel/resistance is at most 100% efficient (most likely a LOT less), but heat pumps are 400% - 500% efficient per unit of electricity, because the idea is just to move heat. In one direction, or another.

All of this is great, until we get to the refrigerant used to transfer the heat. These are very specific chemicals. Historically, these for Chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs). CFCs caused ozone depletion and have high GWP of 14,400.

What is GWP? CO2 is a warming gas that has Global Warming Potential (GWP) of 1 (the standard). Earth radiates heat back into the atmosphere (exactly the same as get from Sun) and CO2 acts as a barrier for the radiated heat from earth, retaining heat in the atmosphere and warming the planet. Why Greenhouse Gases Make the Planet Warmer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIBk0pGV_BQ

But, there are lots of other gases that have higher GWP. Fluorinated gases: Hydrofluorocarbons, perfluorocarbons, sulfur hexafluoride, and nitrogen trifluoride are synthetic gases used for refrigeration (maybe other applications). Fluorinated gases replaced CFCs, which were causing ozone depletion. But they have high GWP. HFCs: up to 12,400, PFCs: up to 11,100, NF3: 16,100, SF6: 23,500 (https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/fluorinated-gas-emissions)

So, we have to find better alternatives for refrigerants. Because, these leak. And everybody on the planet is going to buy ACs. CO2 is a terrific refrigerant because it has GWP 1 and leaking of CO2 is perfectly okay. With 40 - 60 billion tons of CO2 from fossil fuels, CO2 leaks from refrigerants are less than a rounding error.

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elgertam 2 hours ago
> Some Japanese utilities have introduced tariffs designed to encourage daytime water heating as growing volumes of solar generation enter the grid. [Emphasis added.]

I was quite confused at the use of "tariff" here, as it meant to me a "tax on a good crossing a political boundary." Turns out, 'tariff' has an older meaning: a published schedule of fees or taxes issued by some authority.

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egeozcan 59 minutes ago
I've read that the word is borrowed from Arabic, meaning notification, and I think at first it was price notifications and then people started using it to mean that the prices were bound to some schedule or condition.

For example in Turkish, "tarife" means only that: Conditional / Schedule-based pricing, and according to Sevan Nişanyan (a language researcher), Turkish borrowed it from Italian, where it was being used similarly. Import tariffs are a completely different word.

It apparently came to English through Italian -> Spanish -> French.

So I'm not a native English speaker but as far as I understand, import tariffs are just one kind of tariff.

ps. I just f'ing love Etymology.

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fransje26 19 minutes ago
From French, tarif, a table showing the amounts of payable fees, or a list of prices set for certain goods or services (1572), via Spanish tarifa, from Arabic ta'arifa, meaning notification, coming from 'arrifa, to let know.
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thevillagechief 48 minutes ago
Big fan of Etymology as well, mostly because my brain seemingly needs to understand the origin/history of terms to feel like I've fully grasped concepts.
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Neil44 45 minutes ago
In the UK you can get agile tarrifs now where the price changes through the day according to demand and supply predictions. There's an API you can use to control chargers, heaters, bitcoin miners etc.
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Aboutplants 2 hours ago
US utilities also have Tariffs. It’s the statement of how the utility operates and charges users for service. Anytime a utility needs to adjust costs/rates, they need to file a Rate Case with the public utility commissions, and resulting in changes to the Tariff.
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ragebol 17 minutes ago
My electricity contract in the Netherlands here is on a "Dynamisch tarief", with the most direct translation being "Dynamic tariff". It means I pay/get a different price for my power every 15 minutes.

"Tarief" just means price of mainly a service.

I think 'dynamic rate' is the proper translation for the US?

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myrmidon 2 hours ago
It's an arab loan word for ~"price list" (originally strongly suggesting an import-duty-like meaning).

The same word exists in e.g. German or Italian, but mostly just means "pricing scheme" there, like in the article ("import duty" using a different expression in those languages).

Might be a mostly/somewhat "false friend" for a German (pv magazine is german).

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bayindirh 52 minutes ago
Tarif/Tarife means price list of anything. Your barber, restaurant, taxi service, hospital can have one. tariff as in the meaning of custom tax is a very narrow meaning considering the usage of the word in general (but that's OK).

Import duty is "gümrük vergisi", and the general list of this is "gümrük vergisi tarifesi" in broad sense. It also has a more technical name here but both I don't remember it, and it doesn't matter in this context.

In the Japan's context we would call it "elektrik fiyat tarifesi", or "elektrik tarifesi" for short, for example.

Cheers,

Your friendly Turkish HN user.

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trescenzi 51 minutes ago
It’s confusingly super common in the US for that usage when talking about trucking and shipping. Where of course the other kind of tariffs are also common.
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_joel 2 hours ago
I've seen 'tariff' used a fair amount here in the UK on price lists (taxi etc)
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world2vec 51 minutes ago
Same in Portugal: a "tarifa" can mean a price charged for a rendered service or a tax on imported products.
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koito17 2 hours ago
The Japanese word used in the context of price lists would be something like 料金表 or 料金メニュー.

When I see "tariff", my mind only thinks of 関税 , and I was just as confused as you were. Turns out its just an item in a price schedule.

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boringg 51 minutes ago
Japan is so far ahead the rest of the world for quality and innovative heat pumps. Quiet, robust, high efficiency in cold climates. I wish they could bring the prices down though.

I worry in 15 years we will all have crapily made Chinese heat pumps for a fraction of the cost. Noisy, not robust, copying competitor designs not innovating, lower efficiency but easily replaceable. Theres probably an analogy here with software talent and AI but its too early to do that.

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PaulHoule 42 minutes ago
Not everything from China is crap.

I'm a big fan of Chinese lenses. I reach for Japanese and German lenses when I want to take the highest quality photographs that look like the photographs all the other photographers take. When I want to take a picture like you've never seen before I reach for

https://www.venuslens.net/product/laowa-9mm-f-5-6-ff-rl/?srs...

or

https://findingrange.com/2022/01/14/7artisans-photoelectric-...

It's true a $3000 lens from Sony has better optical quality than a $300 lens from China, like take a picture of a starry sky and you will see light rays bounce around a lot more inside the Chinese lens. But in terms of value and innovation Chinese lenses have a place, and many Chinese manufacturers are looking for this kind of opportunity for whatever they make.

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pbkompasz 4 minutes ago
> But in terms of value and innovation Chinese lenses have a place

What's the innovation?

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post_break 38 minutes ago
China figured out how to make thermal imaging sensors as well. Why would you buy a $4,000 Flir with less resolution when you can get a $400 Topdon. What's funny is now it appears Flir has cut their prices dramatically to compete.
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27183 22 minutes ago
I have Haier Arctic heat pumps that are made in China. They've been great so far. I've also worked with suppliers in Shenzhen for one-off custom electronic devices that would put western companies to shame in their communication, efficiency, turnaround time, cost, and engineering quality. The new transmission I just put in my truck was made in China too.
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pbkompasz 5 minutes ago
This China craze won't last long. The Chinese PV export market crashed couple months ago(down 30% YoY), and it seems like their domestic auto market crashed too(down ~25% YoY since August).
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wslh 2 minutes ago
> crapily made Chinese heat pumps for a fraction of the cost

China is now at a stage of economic development where it can manufacture products across the entire quality spectrum.

Japan went through a somewhat similar transition: in the 1960s and 70s.

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nickpeterson 8 minutes ago
I live in Ohio in a 100 year old home with cast iron radiators and a natural gas boiler and a gas water heater. I’d love to move to electric but it feels like my only real option for keeping the cast iron is something like the Daikin Altherma 3 H HT. Does anyone more knowledgeable of this part of the industry know of any reasonable alternatives for electrifying old houses but keeping the radiators?
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throw0101d 23 hours ago
CO2 as a refrigerant isn't new:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-744

It's just not as prevalent in the residential HVAC market (which this product serves?), and more in the commercial/industrial space (probably because of the higher pressures needed to get into a liquid state).

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totetsu 56 seconds ago
I heard CO2 is a gas with a powerful green house effect. What happens at the end of life of these units I wonder? What if they leak and it gets into the atmosphere!
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alex_duf 2 hours ago
It's useful though, as I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that the gases generally used in HVAC tends to have much worse warming effect than co2 per volume.

We do need heat pumps deployed at large scale, but sometimes I worry we don't understand they need to be handled with care at the end of their life

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rsynnott 35 seconds ago
Nah, usually propane or similar, these days. CFCs and friends have largely been eliminated.
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tdeck 28 minutes ago
I always wondered why we don't see more Sterling Engine based heat pumps. IIUC they can use almost any gas including air.
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formerly_proven 7 minutes ago
Because they're sensible heat machines, instead of latent heat machines. In a perfect frictionless vacuum, both of these can achieve the same theoretical efficiency. In practice, not so much. In particular, the isothermal heat exchange of the ideal Stirling cycle requires heat exchangers with no thermal resistance (and therefore no temperature difference). A latent heat pump has a much easier time to very closely approximate isothermal heat exchange because condensation/evaporation temperatures at a given pressure are essentially constant.
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tdeck 6 minutes ago
What is the back of the envelope efficiency penalty we're talking about here?
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callmemclovin 60 minutes ago
That's true, old school refrigerants like R-12 are awful. The downside of modern replacement refrigerants are high operating pressure (>100 bar for R-744/CO2) or high flammability for natural refrigerants like R-290 (Propane) and R-600a (Isobutane). But these are solely engineering problems, and I'm happy to know that my R-290 heat pumps at home (Panasonic L & Wolf FHS) and A/C (Midea Xtreme Save Blue) aren't awful to the environment, once they reach EOL.
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moepstar 2 hours ago
Yes, that dangerous effect is indexed as GWP - global warming potential.

CO2 has a GWP of 1 in this context, while other refrigerants are worse - for example, R32 has a GWP of 675 (so 675x worse if it escapes), not sure about R290 (Propane), which I believe is either about 40 or 14…

Regarding EoL: At least around here, household appliances such as fridges are brought to a recycling yard and are properly taken care of in that regard… and as for heatpumps - those are only to be installed by certified professionals, for this very reason.

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jabl 46 minutes ago
Per the latest IPCC report, GWP of propane is estimated to be 0.02, previously it was estimated to be around 3.
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ZeroGravitas 25 minutes ago
R32 also got rated higher: GWP went from 675 -> 771
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raisedbyninjas 36 minutes ago
R32 is on the safe side of common refrigerants. R410 just started its phase out in the US and carries a GWP of >2000.
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PowerElectronix 49 minutes ago
Yeah, ammonia can also be used, it's, IIRC, more efficient to use it and a bit safer because you don't high pressure, buuut enough ammonia in the air will suffocate you.

It's lighter than air so it will go away by itself if allowed to. For a purely exterior instalation it's much better than anything else.

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stephen_g 27 minutes ago
I have a heat pump that uses R290 (propane) (as well as an CO2 one for hot water) and would take that any day of the week over ammonia! The charge of propane is pretty tiny and the safety standards extremely strict, so not really concerning in terms of flammability, ammonia I would consider far, far more dangerous.
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codeduck 38 minutes ago
I feel like potential suffocation is not what I'd be most concerned about if I were in an atmosphere with high concentrations of gaseous ammonia.
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PunchyHamster 2 hours ago
If it is outside you can just use propane as refrigerant. Low warming value and it leaking to outside doesn't matter, not gonna catch on fire.

There are indoor devices using propane but they generally come with caveat "must be installed on room at least this m3", precisely so if it leaks it doesn't get to density that allows explosion

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jabl 44 minutes ago
I believe there are propane using split AC systems where propane is used only in the outside unit. The outside unit has a heat exchanger transferring the heat to some glycol-water solution which is what then circulates through the inside unit.
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27183 25 minutes ago
I currently have R410a heat pumps with minisplits, when they're off warranty sometime in the future I might consider putting propane in them. The main question would be whether the oil used with R410a is compatible with propane as a refrigerant.

This is probably a little bit "dangerous" in the sense that I'll have high pressure propane in the line sets and minisplits inside the house, but it's a very small volume of propane and not really any more dangerous from a fire perspective than my propane fired condensing gas boiler.

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arpinum 2 hours ago
CO2 does better with large temp deltas, like hot water tanks. Radiators don't produce large deltas - the inlet to outlet diff is typically under 10 degrees. But they run at higher pressures, making the manufacturing more expensive.
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Lwerewolf 2 hours ago
There are resident systems, and they're of exactly the type listed in the article (i.e. water heaters). Residential... area heating pumps, so to say, are moving towards propane (afaik). I've been looking into getting a propane monoblock air-to-water pump, with an antifreeze loop towards an indoors heat exchanger / water tank.
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adaml_623 57 minutes ago
Trends for new refrigerant depends on country... some to R-454B, and some to Propane, doesn't seem like C02 is very common which is a pity because I love the idea of a non-toxic non-flammable super cheap refrigerant.

This is for the Japanese market so perhaps the cons of the C02 systems are outweighed by the safety aspects.

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EspadaV9 2 hours ago
I'm actually in need of a new hot water tank and have been looking for a heat pump one. Wonder if these will be available in Australia, and how they compare to the current range.
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kalleboo 8 minutes ago
The Australian electronics YouTuber Dave Jones (EEVBlog) had a heat pump water heater installed in his house, and while on the outside it was branded "Reclaim Energy", it had a Made in Japan sticker and was internally a Mitsubishi.
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XorNot 58 minutes ago
I have a heat pump hot water unit in Australia - Sanden: https://www.sanden-hot-water.com.au/

CO2 refrigerant as well.

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masterj 21 minutes ago
I have this one in Canada. Works well!

But having water leave the building envelope is a bit scary on very cold days. There are heat traces and freeze valves so it should be fine, but I do worry about power outages during cold snaps

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objektif 2 hours ago
“Hitachi has not yet disclosed full efficiency specifications for the two new models. Their predecessors, the BHP-FV37WD and BHP-FV46WD, have annual hot-water and heat-retention efficiency ratings under Japanese Industrial Standards (JIS) of 4.2 and 4.1, respectively.”

What does this mean?

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alex_duf 2 hours ago
If I'm not mistaken, it means 1kWh of electricity moves 4.1kWh of heat into your hot water tank. Heat pumps are amazing.
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PunchyHamster 2 hours ago
well, in case of water heater it moves it from your room to the water.

Which means in winter that is extra work for your heating system to compensate for

But in climates where heating only really runs in winter it's great

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kalleboo 6 minutes ago
The ones in Japan go outdoors.

Most homes in Japan for decades have been designed for Tankless Gas Water Heaters stuck on the side of the building so there is no room indoors for a water tank.

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stephen_g 21 minutes ago
These tend to work fine down to -25° C or so ambient temperature (you lose some efficiency below -5° C or so), so should always be outside. Obviously you need an alternate source of water heating if you live somewhere where it routinely gets below that, but even in a lot of places like that you could set it up to use the heat pump 90-95% of the year and a cheap but far less efficient resistive heater for the very cold days, and still come out far ahead.
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Dlemlo 50 minutes ago
The one mentioned in the article has an outside unit.

And for the normal ones, at least they are leveraging outside temperature parts of the time while everything else stays at 1 in 1 out.

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cogman10 37 minutes ago
Technically your refrigerator heats up your kitchen in the same fashion adding extra work for your AC to compensate.

Unless you live in the artic where it's freezing year round, these things make sense. During the summer they reduce your cooling load and during the winter they are effectively heated by whatever your home heater is. Meaning if it's gas, then they are gas powered. If you have a heat pump outside then it's still pretty efficient. Even in the worst case of a resistive heater you are basically just running a slow resistive heater.

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slau 60 minutes ago
Technology Connections has recently published an in-depth piece of the advantages and disadvantages of in-room heat-pump water heaters [1].

The tl;dw is that it is significantly slower than a resistive or gas-powered water heater, and lowers the temperature of the room by a few degrees, but nothing major. You have to over-provision them compared to your needs. And they are way bigger.

[1]: https://youtu.be/F_7B2shTPPU

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cogman10 47 minutes ago
> significantly slower than a resistive or gas-powered water heater

This was TC being a weirdo. He bought a 120V hot water heater. Had he done a regular 240V water heater the recovery time would be comparable to pure resistive water heaters.

But the takeaway about cooling is important. These things barely chill the room they are in.

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ZeroGravitas 53 minutes ago
This specific model appears to be a split system that has an external unit to extract the heat from the outside air.
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Danoch 2 hours ago
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onedognight 2 hours ago
I believe that for every joule of electricity used, 4 or 4.1 joules are pumped from the environment into the water. This is contrast to conventional water heaters which are bounded by an efficiency of 1, where, for example, burning gas directly heats the water with some heat leaking into the environment instead of the water.
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