Ex-FTC boss Khan: break out the handcuffs for AI CEOs, citing 1934 precedent
72 points by throwworhtthrow 4 hours ago | 38 comments

int32_64 2 hours ago
Aaron Swartz was facing up to 35 years for wire fraud and hacking for swiping some JSTOR documents, and the DOJ has done nothing against the AI companies and their IP violating antics.
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ronnier 2 minutes ago
So you are for shutting down xcancel?
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gruez 2 hours ago
>and the DOJ has done nothing against the AI companies and their IP violating antics.

For good reason. Courts have so far ruled AI training is fair use, and it doesn't look likely to be overturned by the supreme court. Theres also the matter of some labs pirating books to get training data, which is illegal (they lost in civil court), but it's unclear whether that can be criminally prosecuted.

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adastra22 2 hours ago
Hacking other companies is illegal as far as I understand.
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gruez 2 hours ago
1. OP specifically mentioned "IP violating antics", not hacking

2. All the hacking legislation (and criminal law in general) require proving intent, which so far as we can tell didn't exist in those cases. At best you can try some "reckless" or "negligent" angle, but that would a novel legal argument and would be risky to prosecute

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tptacek 56 minutes ago
It's not at all relevant to this thread, but no he wasn't. At their worst, prosecutors were threatening to push for 7 years; the guideline sentence for Swartz's offense, were he to take it to trial and lose, would likely have been under the level allowing for straight probation (go to a sentencing calculator and plug the values in); writing after his death, his own lawyer stated that had he gone to trial and lost he was unlikely to face a custodial sentence at all.

We get this "35 year" number from adding up all the counts he faced, taking their maximum sentence. That's just not how sentencing works. Like charges group, and you're sentenced according to the most severe charge.

People cite these numbers in part because DOJ posts them in their press releases. DOJ is in these instances lying. When we amplify those lies, we're doing their work for them.

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tzs 22 minutes ago
This is 100% correct.

Here are some useful links. This is an explanation of just how they got those ridiculous numbers like 35 years [1].

There is also often confusion of what he did and what hewas charged with. Here's a two part series going over that [2][3].

[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20130211030902/https://www.popeh...

[2] https://volokh.com/2013/01/14/aaron-swartz-charges/

[3] https://volokh.com/2013/01/16/the-criminal-charges-against-a...

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dearing 13 minutes ago
Michel Foucault enters the chat.
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eadler 11 minutes ago
I've read a fair amount of Foucault and while I could guess, what specifically were you thinking of?
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xnx 2 hours ago
AI is a very competitive market where consumers are getting the product for much less than it costs. This does not seem like an area where the government needs to butt in.

Attention would be better spent on long list of other poorly behaved companies: cable ISP monopolies, health insurance companies, home insurance companies, etc.

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lenerdenator 2 hours ago
Bear with me here: we could do all of them.

You can get these companies under control. You just have to, y'know, try.

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seemaze 55 minutes ago
we could do all of them, but they all seem to be up to date on their tithe. AI has a somewhat mixed record of tribute.
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throwworhtthrow 4 hours ago
Source: https://x.com/linamkhan/status/2099204390548639960 (seems like a single post, so you don't need to log in and see replies)

I can't tell if Khan is being realistic when she says laws against “unfair or deceptive [acts]” or “unfair methods of competition” apply to AI labs. Her 2-sentence justifications aren't enough to convince me. But maybe it's sufficient for state AG's who want to start investigations.

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devindotcom 12 minutes ago
She is a former FTC Chair so she knows what she's talking about, although her approach to enforcement was more expansive than others. The FTC would investigate, likely along the lines she summarizes, build a case in writing, and refer it to the Justice Dept, which would actually prosecute the case. Not going to happen under this administration, but Khan is saying it's entirely possible that such an enforcement action could be brought to bear, now or later. Personally I hope she gets her job back at some point and does it herself.
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afavour 2 hours ago
It won’t happen, but if it did the CEOs have no one but themselves to blame. They’re hyping up their products as being able to destroy the human race then are somehow surprised at the level of anti-AI sentiment out there in the world.
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mikrl 2 hours ago
I honestly don’t know what anyone expected given all the labs started building self-driving malware at about the same time.

I remember lots of people talking about running agents in VMs or on whole dedicated machines, yet barely anyone talking about how they were using mundane OS access controls.

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fwlr 3 hours ago
The passage banning “unfair competition” is utterly marvellous:

    A trader may not, by pursuing a dishonest practice, force his competitors to choose between its adoption or the loss of their trade. A method of competition [is ‘unfair’ when it] casts upon one's competitors the burden of the loss of business unless they will descend to a practice which they are under a powerful moral compulsion not to adopt, even though it is not criminal… 

    It is true that the statute does not authorize regulation which has no purpose other than that of relieving merchants from troublesome competition …  But here the competitive method is shown to exploit [those] who are unable to protect themselves. It employs a device [that has] met with condemnation throughout the community. Without inquiring whether [other criminal statues apply] … it is clear that the practice is of the sort which the common law and criminal statutes have long deemed contrary to public policy. For these reasons a large share of the industry holds out against the device, despite ensuing loss in trade, or bows reluctantly to what it brands unscrupulous. It would seem a gross perversion of the normal meaning of the word … to hold that the method is not 'unfair.'
Apply it immediately!
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homeonthemtn 2 hours ago
^ further evidence that the problem with democracy isn't democracy, it's that we lack politicians willing to enforce it
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Tractor8626 12 minutes ago
Just elect correct politicians doh
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collingreen 2 hours ago
Isn't that just the human problem for every possible form of government?
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WalterBright 2 hours ago
[flagged]
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moribvndvs 57 minutes ago
So is the solution to only nominate corporate bagmen who have a perverse incentive?
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dnautics 53 minutes ago
No. Nominate a pissed off insider who knows how things work from personal experience and an axe to grind!
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collingreen 2 hours ago
And therefore shouldn't be allowed to have opinions on crime and antitrust? Is that your argument?
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WalterBright 37 minutes ago
Everybody has opinions. That doesn't mean those opinions are based on reality.
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int3 60 minutes ago
duh? why would you want someone with no experience making decisions?
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tzs 31 minutes ago
She has experience in the relevant areas.

It is quite common for experience in X itself to be quite different from the experience that is useful in dealing with X in some different context.

Most oncologists have no experience with actually having cancer themselves.

A majority of aircraft mechanics are not pilots.

Only a small percentage of referees in most major professional sports leagues have every played that sport professionally themselves.

Most patent lawyers are not inventors.

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WalterBright 14 minutes ago
I worked for Boeing designing aircraft parts. I am not a pilot. I worked at the direction of my boss, who was a pilot. He was the gatekeeper of my work.

He'd also take me up flying, and would let me try the controls a bit. I trusted and valued his pilot's judgement.

Many other engineers at Boeing were also pilots. Friends of mine are pilots. My father was a combat pilot in two wars.

Airplane mechanics have very little decision making power. They go strictly by the book. I worked on writing instructions for the mechanics who would be maintaining and checking my gearbox design. It went into excruciating detail.

I would wager that the better mechanics were ones who were pilots, as they'd know in their bones how important their job was.

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WalterBright 11 minutes ago
I have some patents, and I worked with patent lawyers to file them. The patent lawyers didn't understand diddly squat about my inventions. They knew how to fill out the required forms, though.
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seemaze 52 minutes ago
Depends on if you're referring to experience defrauding the American public, or protecting the American public. That can have different answers depending on what which side of the transaction you sit.
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throwaway_7274 40 minutes ago
What does experience mean? Does only private-sector experience "count?" Should we remove Alito from the bench on those grounds?
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WalterBright 11 minutes ago
> What does experience mean?

Oh, the tiresome word definition game again. No thanks.

> Does only private-sector experience "count?"

Why did you feel the need to insert "only"?

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tzs 48 minutes ago
None of those things you list that she has never done help in any meaningful way with understanding antitrust law.
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WalterBright 42 minutes ago
Running a business is a rude awakening for anyone who hasn't done it. Like a ballet critic who has never taken a ballet class. Or a commander who has never been shot at. Or a sailor who has never been at sea.

Mayors Katie Wilson and Mandami have never run a business, or worked for a business, and it shows.

How can one regulate a business without ever being in the trenches?

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adestefan 2 hours ago
So what.
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WalterBright 42 minutes ago
Theory and practice are different things.
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throwaway_7274 55 minutes ago
Lina Khan has never eaten breakfast cereal out of a boot, nor even a shoe.
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EGreg 45 minutes ago
If you execute a ponzi scheme with thousands of degens — but it’s magic crypto tokens

When you perpetrate a huge hacking job with thousands of attackers — but it’s magic agent swarms

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VCFundedGenYer 2 hours ago
It’s definitely happening in 2029 if the election goes a certain way. They all know that too.

There WILL be an end to this.

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