Pre-Greek: The lost language hidden within Ancient Greek
37 points by axiologist 4 hours ago | 10 comments

kleton 2 hours ago
> because the Proto-Indo-European language arose in the landlocked steppes, it had no need for—and has no securely reconstructable word for—‘sea’.

No, it is mori, attested in marine, muir, maryadah, mal, morje, etc in farflung IE tongues today.

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TFNA 54 minutes ago
There are decades of scholarship on those cognates, and a longstanding view that in Proto-Indo-European the word meant simply "large body of water" and not specifically "sea". Moreover, it may be a substrate word borrowed into European IE languages, as the affinity of that Sanskrit word to this cognate set is not very certain.
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kleton 36 minutes ago
It is probably not a substrate word, but more likely coming from "dead" water, as in not a moving river.
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TFNA 31 minutes ago
This is a well-established field where you can read experts discussing the word in depth, including its derivational properties and ablaut behavior. This isn't something where an HN's armchair guess is worth anything, just like when laypeople use HN threads on quantum theory for their own inane ideas.
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kleton 4 minutes ago
Carl Darling Buck (A Dictionary of Selected Synonyms in the Principal Indo-European Languages) and Julius Pokorny (Indogermanisches Etymologisches Wörterbuch) are just a few of the philologists who have posited this "dead water" hypothesis
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medvidek 33 minutes ago
You can see the same with the word "sea". Its German equivalent See still mainly means "lake", even though in some fixed expressions it can be translated as "sea" (e.g. Nordsee, Ostsee).
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schoen 54 minutes ago
Wiktionary's note says some people think this root may originally have referred to freshwater/inland seas, not oceans.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-Eur...

In many of the daughter languages it does regularly include saltwater connected to the world ocean (certainly the Latin "Mare Nostrum" for the Mediterranean!); it just seems uncertain from this description whether it necessarily had that sense in PIE.

That doesn't seem like "had no ... word for ... 'sea'" is a very clear or helpful description of the situation, though.

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TFNA 2 hours ago
The title is super-clickbaity, as no Indo-Europeanist working today believes in a single Pre-Greek language; this was the idée fixe of the scholar Robert Beekes well over a decade ago now, and very flawed research as Beekes was succumbing to dementia then. In fact, within the field "Pre-Greek!" has become something of an inside joke.

The article does eventually mention the current state-of-the-art, but only after perpetuating the misconception for some paragraphs, and that is poor form for a pop-sci article.

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noncoml 2 hours ago
> early Greeks, and especially the Mycenaeans (c. 1750–1050 BCE), are associated with major advances in technology (including writing)

I’ve been doing a bit of reading on the Bronze Age Collapse recently. It was such an apocalyptic event that Greeks forgot how to write and read.

Before the collapse, Greeks were using Linear A and Linear B. It took them a few hundred years after the Bronze Age Collapse to learn how to write again, this time borrowing the Phoenician alphabet.

Imagine what an event would look like today that would take us back 200-400 years technologically.

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dr_dshiv 8 minutes ago
How long ago before the Myceneneans does there remain a coherent concept of Greek-ness?

“Solon, oh Solon!” — are Greeks truly ancient or relative newcomers in a seafaring land?

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atmosx 22 minutes ago
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fr2029 2 hours ago
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