Edit: One is that jev/laya are tuned to have better probabilities, but a reranker can be fine tuned to do that as well. And jev/laya use RLCD?
Main difference is that laya/jev/et-al give you a zero-shot classifier that requires no training. You can prompt engineer your way to a quick fairly reliable cheap enough decision engine that you can use to iterate quickly (by prompt engineering).
Right now a lot of people are doing this with LLMs and it's too slow and expensive.
Imo the right iterative approach to productionizing these systems is something like:
1. Build it with an LLM. Iterate on the prompt
2. Start building a real-world dataset
3. When the prompt works, turn it into a clear rubric for Jev or similar
4. Keep iterating until desired accuracy achieved
5. Use the real-world evals you've built to train a custom classifier fine-tuned to your needs
OpenAI has a section on their embeddings model api page for zero shot classification. Of course you can choose an open weights embedding too if you’d like.
https://developers.openai.com/cookbook/examples/zero-shot_cl...
I think Jev wins on marketing and convenience. Most SWEs don’t want to talk about embeddings, cosine similarity, or precision/recall tradeoffs. They want something which plausibly works and is easy to use.
We've stumbled into general differentiable models..
Rank System Score Public / sealed accuracy Evidence
1 decider-4b v2 64.13 83.5% / 34.7% Evaluator-run, offline
2 Jev 1.13 63.29 86.6% / 36.7% Evaluator-run API
3 JevK5 v0.2 62.04 85.3% / 33.1% Evaluator-run
4 Cygnet 12B 61.76 87.9% / 33.8% Evaluator-run, offline
5 Hopper 59.43 82.3% / 34.1% Evaluator-run
28 Kev 4B 36.14 66.2% / 22.4% Evaluator-run
41 Laya 421M 30.25 58.4% / 30.8% Evaluator-run
But I'm guessing people will find the right training regime and data mix soon to close the gap.
But big things I see are instability and inaccuracy - like pick a random problem.
It's so easy that I question why I would ever pay for JEV when eventually I'll have done enough random things that I will also have a large corpus and likely a general model as well.
It's a fast classifier you can use out-the-box, ~1.5bn tokens is about $40 (I've been hammering it)
It just works ... a whole bunch of low-level/low-importance workflow stuff that was getting farmed out to small/fast LLM models now has a competitive alternative ... and bits that hadn't even been considered to go into some external descision/classifier service can be tested/deployed at ~$0.00003/req
I don't get this wall of negativity on it, it's genuinely innovative/useful tech ... would expect HN to be more positive, regardless of whether it's the absolute best execution
Starting from a business POV one should inflate terminology, hack together an MVP, and see if the market demands it before doing hardcore R&D.
But starting from technical/craftsman POV all you see is a hack and a lot of big words, so it’s easy to become jaded.
I think the point being made is that Jev is great but it has no competitive moat, and open source versions will very soon catch up if their secret sauce is just synthetic data.
(Whether or not that is true, I don't know.)
I’m sure this has been a gradual and long decline. Maybe it even started with the dot com boom and accelerated with crypto. With AI it seems to have got worse.
Also curious, it seems from looking at the accuracy scores you gave that it seems to be NLI > Gliclass > Laya (for Bert types)? Why do you seem to feature/recommend Laya more - is Laya better in some way?
Very small context window, but for some existing small llm work I was doing, it was a drop-in replacement and it makes me happy I can get use out of old hardware I have running.
>example is a text classification task instead of a decision
decision model = classifier
system one model = small non-reasoning LLM
noul = boolean
confidence = f(probabilities)
It's sad to see how gullible engineers are today.
that laya is even a thing is further evidence, people took that author at face value, the paper contents are incomplete and describe something that does not sound like Jev at all
this was the period of arxiv history that led to the new vouching system, laya author contributed to that imo
That said, Typesafe false marketing caused Laya to fit perfectly into pretty much every advantage that they are claiming: "system one decision model", cheap, fast, no hallucinations, structured, confidence output, parallel, calibrated. Their BS is their own demise.
I think Laya's author genuinely bought their BS and thinks he built the same thing. Unlike Typesafe, I don't think he's intentionally misleading people.
The only unique thing about Jev is that it's a general purpose classifier. Funny enough, they were so busy spreading marketing bullshit that they forgot to mention the only real thing that makes Jev unique.
I suspect most people only read the blog post, and thought it was great how a VC company "stole" an idea and was "outdone" by a rando... without actually checking the facts. Confirmational reading bias, we live in a post-truth world with dysfunction media ecosystem
But like you said, at the end of the day he's just a rando.
He's not asking for $40m, not saying "I made ChatGPT, but i hate it, so I built the next big thing". Not claiming to co-invent RLHF.
Laya is just noise. Jev's bullshit affects me today - I see people injecting it into the codebases where it has no place.
Just how to "make fkn $500k ARR fast?"
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49674396
too much LI/Xitter influencer consumption
if you use gateways, GoModel support the S1 endpoints, my favorite feature is the virtual models, stable name, I can swap out the backing model(s)
https://gomodel.enterpilot.io/docs/getting-started/quickstar...
(the "kev" in the docs is my fault, I should have said Jev / System1 in my feature request)
Smarter move if you have an eval set is to just train a classifier and call it a day.
top open one is trained by perplexity cto for $3k, kinda cool https://x.com/denisyarats/status/2102252088067850507
Bro is writing off the H200 lol
On a sidenote I really can't stand the term "swarm" and definately plays into AI doomerism.
Like, their example is of classification for a support interface.... `refund_requested`. Pretty convenient bool given the example is about a refund- what if 99% of submissions don't ask about a refund? Also, is that user not a `churn_risk`? What could possibly qualify as a churn risk if not a user asking for a refund?
https://ollaya.dev/library/laya The examples suffer the same problem of why I'd prefer to use a string column vs an enum. Changing an enum means you need to update the db, using a string you can do whatever.
I'm not trying to be negative, I genuinely want to know about some practical examples (that don't require tons of backwards maintenance).