Fingerprints are the new cookies
114 points by royfish 5 hours ago | 45 comments

byte_0 2 minutes ago
I have heard from some power users that Brave is one of the best browsers with regard to ad-blocking and privacy. But I think I have read elsewhere that it receives money from ad companies to display only certain ads, which does not make me trust it. Does anyone have facts or know where to find them?
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helterskelter2 60 minutes ago
I've seen anti-fingerprinting plugins and browser configs, etc, but they all seem to make you more interesting for not being fingerprintable, or for turning off a lot of features used in fingerprinting.

Is there any reason a browser or plugin couldn't just spoof the data used in fingerprinting to random values? So it emits different values for each page or resource you load?

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edelbitter 6 minutes ago
You can forcefully disable hardware acceleration, that removes a few bits - though javascript can still guesstimate your CPU and memory.

For a more proper solution, you could try to convince Mozilla that granting every website uncapped multi-threading and direct GPU access is a bit much. If webgl/webgpu truly is a must, then maybe each website permission should start with a single-threaded software-renderer that behaves indistinguishable on all supported platforms. And only after granting the website that extra permissions let it determine that a more powerful GPU is available.

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Telaneo 48 minutes ago
Random is often going to be indirectly fingerprintable too, since some values are always the same (or the same given each browser version). Some values can't be set to be random or otherwise non-fingerprintable data without affecting the user, like viewport size.

Spoofing 'Newly installed most recent version of Google Chrome on the latest version of Windows 11 in the US' without leaving any holes revealing something fishy is surprisingly hard, but that or 'Safari running on recent-ish iPhone running up to date iOS' would be the ideal target to blend in with the crowd.

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ycombinatrix 24 minutes ago
There are projects that do this already e.g. https://github.com/lwthiker/curl-impersonate
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Computer0 32 minutes ago
Any idea how iOS’ private browsing impacts fingerprinting?
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conception 52 minutes ago
I think this is what canvas blocker does.
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MiroslavPokorny 3 hours ago
Theres only one solution, ban third party advertising. Everything else is a compromise that doesnt work anyway.
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charcircuit 2 hours ago
Fingerprinting is still needing for preventing fraud and platform abuse like spam.
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Terr_ 55 minutes ago
How do you tell the difference between a regular human trying to not have a perma-dossier versus a bot? The only winning move is not to play--er, not to have this kind of game in the first place.
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wyager 2 hours ago
It doesn't actually work for that
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anthonyIPH 35 minutes ago
I worked in fraud prevention for years and device fingerprinting didn't stop fraud, but it reduced it by upping the up the cost. It is not hard to circumvent fingerprinting, but it still takes a non-zero amount of effort on behalf of the fraudster. Device fingerprints helped us identify and block or prevent a lot of low effort fraud and abuse on various platforms.
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davidjade 2 hours ago
Huh, it is different for me on every page refresh. No VPN, etc... just Firefox on Windows with uBlock, CanvasBlocker, and a PiHole. No persistent fingerprint for me!
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felixfurtak 29 minutes ago
firefox, ublock and canvasblocker seems to be enough for me. New identity every refresh
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1a527dd5 4 hours ago
My reaction to this is always two fold; firstly cool tech, secondly horrifying invasion of privacy.

At {{job}} we did briefly consider rolling out fingerprint.com, but settled on ja3/ja4 at the CDN layer.

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MathMonkeyMan 2 hours ago
I was the Gentle Owl. Then I connected to a VPN, opened a private window in the same browser, and didn't maximize the window. Now I'm the Nosy Toucan.

The article's points still stand, but the trick didn't work this one time.

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Guvante 56 minutes ago
Private window is called out in the article as creating a second entity
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charcircuit 2 hours ago
>and the solutions Google has developed (Privacy Sandbox) kinda suck and have raised antitrust concerns so nobody uses them.

This is backwards. The antitrust concerns of removing 3rd party cookies led to them developing alternatives.

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Cider9986 3 hours ago
Fingerprinting is really bad for privacy and the defenses against it are not there. See https://fingerprint.com. Tor Browser defeats it but I don't think there's a highly usable browser like Brave you can use and prevent being tracked by it.
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eks391 2 hours ago
I've been obfuscating my fingerprint with Brave for years, which I selected specifically because it was the browser I was able to do this with, based on my testing of 5 popular browsers, using https://coveryourtracks.eff.org/ as my benchmark.

It does mean that sites that uses 2FA (so every site nowadays) flag me as a coming from a new device each visit, and I have to have my phone nearby every time I want to use my computer, which is quite annoying. If you use GrapheneOS, you can obfuscate your phone too on WiFi networks (and sites, but GrapheneOS not needed for that, just Brave). You can't obfuscate yourself on cellular networks though, unless you have a ton of sim cards you rotate through.

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Cider9986 2 hours ago
> unless you have a ton of sim cards you rotate through

And phones!

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ButlerianJihad 18 minutes ago
For years, I've been practicing good privacy-hygiene in public. At my doctor's office, I always wear a Groucho Marx moustache to keep them guessing. Before I walk into my bank for a withdrawal, I team up with two of my friends, set them on my shoulders, and throw a trenchcoat over us! I made a fake ID with my birthday on July 4th and my weight as 98 pounds, but my pharmacy is now refusing to fill my prescriptions!

So what sort of benefits are you reaping from your anti-fingerprinting measures?

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iugtmkbdfil834 4 hours ago
So what is next in this cat and mouse game? Fake-slow browser to miss fingerprint? Declare revolution and declare all advertising illegal?
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blooalien 4 hours ago
Cookies, in and of themselves, are not bad. Like any tool that can be misused, they're just being abused by a ton of really shitty people in an effort to try to enrich themselves at the expense of others. Cookies do solve a valid problem on the web, that being "How do we maintain 'state' from one page request to the next in a stateless protocol like HTTP(s)?"

Now we have a new (nearly impossible) problem to solve. "How do we prevent bad actors from abusing pretty much any feature of a public system which can possibly be abused, or reliably catch and punish the people who try?"

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cesarb 2 hours ago
> Cookies do solve a valid problem on the web, that being "How do we maintain 'state' from one page request to the next in a stateless protocol like HTTP(s)?"

Don't you people remember how it was done back when web browsers didn't have cookies, or could be configured to reject or ask for each cookie? The server software automatically added a PHPSESSID parameter to every link, containing the session identifier.

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Dwedit 33 minutes ago
The "PHPSESSID" thing is why many message boards couldn't be archived in wayback machine.
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crote 4 hours ago
This is already illegal in the EU. The consent banners were never about cookies, they have always been about the tracking itself!

Same thing the other way: no need to have a banner for a simple login cookie which isn't being used for privacy-invading tracking purposes.

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cromka 4 hours ago
Yet I am constantly flagged by various pages because Cloudflare decided I had some bot running at some point on my network. And my IP is fixed. Whatever EU is doing, it doesn't work.
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Gigachad 3 hours ago
You might have a residential proxy running somewhere on the network. The latest in botnets is bundling a proxy in with some TV torrent streaming app or whatever else that can run in the background and proxy malicious traffic from your residential IP. Services like cloudflare and crowdsec will keep a constantly updating list of the IP addresses that are actively sending bot traffic and blacklist them. If you can work out where the traffic is coming from and shut it down you should have this issue go away.
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snailmailman 2 hours ago
I have a similar issue. I see cloudflare checkboxes all the time. Google makes me fill out captchas all the time. Sometimes it decides I can’t search, sometimes cloudflare doesnt let me past the checkbox.

I’ve checked my network. I’ve monitored egress traffic. There is no residential proxy. I’m not on a VPN. If anything, services should be able to track me entirely by my home IP that doesn’t change that often.

My best guess is that I’ve committed the crime of not allowing third party cookies? Or maybe the crime of not being logged into a Google account 24/7. It’s not browser or device specific. My iPhone is just as likely to fail the cloudflare checkbox as my desktop with Firefox + uBlock.

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IG_Semmelweiss 2 hours ago
I've committed the extreme crime of running no JS and clean cache of cookies. Plus, something as simple as containerizing work/play/research reading, into different browsers, has provoked the Eye of Google to be cast on me

I haven't seen a YT ad in years while in lurk-only mode (no login), which is nice, but I also see cloudflare everywhere , which is not great.

One of the nicer things about LLMs, is that they arrived just in time to erase my dependency in search.

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nilslindemann 2 hours ago
I have experienced the same with Google and with PayPal, whenever I used Tor. When I afterwards visited those sites using my normal browser I got Captchas. They are actively fighting attempts to avoid fingerprinting. Also, I am pretty sure that no browser protects against getting fingerprinted. Test with https://fingerprint.com/.
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cowlevel 3 hours ago
Have you got a TV? Or a car?
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throawayonthe 3 hours ago
if your IP is fixed, surely no further fingerprinting is necessary?
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tobwen 2 hours ago
Static IPs completely destroy privacy when not being shared with many users. Our university has one outgoing static IP for hundreds of users :)
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buzer 3 hours ago
> they have always been about the tracking itself!

Actually they are about reading from or writing to terminal equipment of user that is not done for "sole purpose of carrying out the transmission of a communication over an electronic communications network" or "strictly necessary in order for the provider of an information society service explicitly requested by the subscriber or user to provide the service". Some safety-related exceptions are possible via ePD Article 15, but those need to be separately added to the local law. That's why things like functional cookies require consent as well.

Of course there is also the GDPR layer on top of this.

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lesuorac 19 minutes ago
Eh reads like a “civil war was about states rights not slavery” argument.

The thing the site is doing that isn’t “strictly necessary” is always tracking.

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howunfortunate 3 hours ago
> See, the thing is, it’s not about you at all. It’s not really about the ads anymore either. Nobody cares about you. And if the police or your government happen to care, I’ll gladly take their money too.

> I look at all this data and I don’t see people. I see patterns. Patterns emerging out of patterns. A living, digital fractal state of the economy, society and human psyche. The crystal ball of the 21st century and it’s made of silicon! That’s the product.

> And to the highest bidder it goes!

> What does that make you then? A gear? An ox? A volunteer?

This does absolutely nothing for me. If this resonates with you, can you explain?

I can understand worry about a tyrannical government, and if you have something like a gambling addiction I can understand about ads. But the meta-level privacy fear about deidentified patterns - I just plain don't get it.

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floorsthelimit 3 hours ago
If every website you ever visits knows it is you, exactly what links you clicked on, and what content you viewed, forever, are you truly ok with that?
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howunfortunate 3 hours ago
Guaranteed deidentified, as the quote above is talking implying?

It's truly totally ok with me, yes.

(I get the non-anonymized concerns, or risk of becoming non-anonymized, that's not what I'm confused about)

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floorsthelimit 28 minutes ago
But you are deanonymized. That’s the entire argument. I’m not sure you understand.
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oofbey 3 hours ago
It’s a question of entropy. If your device is unusual in detectable ways, then the fingerprint has high entropy. But on my iPhone I suspect most of the things being fingerprinted are the same. How many other people get “smug koala”?
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Barbing 3 hours ago
Couple different results than that across three refreshes on iOS w/iCloud Private Relay. Apple does work to do some randomization.

But at least the moment we start using websites the largest players will know it’s us. Nobody else swipes and types exactly like me on my screen size of iOS over the relay.

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micromacrofoot 3 hours ago
fingerprints pick up on all sorts of things that make you different enough combined with another signal, 33 bits can be enough to single you out from anyone else on the planet... iOS can be 10-15, and given a residential IP that's plenty - always mobile is more anonymous on the web but guess what's much worse? apps.

a native app with 0 permission prompts gets you more bits than web

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oofbey 2 hours ago
No. Almost everybody using an iPhone is on the latest release, plus or minus one while updates are rolling out. For a given iOS release and hardware type almost all of those probes are highly correlated. No way there’s 30 bits of entropy in that. I doubt there’s even 10.

Now on a desktop PC sure I believe these fingerprints are highly descriptive. And in android land they probably work okay because of the diversity of products and configurations. But iPhones resist fingerprinting just because they all give the same answers.

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ArgumentMoney81 2 hours ago
[flagged]
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Barbing 3 hours ago
[dead]
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ryanmerket 2 hours ago
[dead]
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