The technical actions needed to ensure the continuity of UTC
35 points by gliffie 2 hours ago | 19 comments

BoppreH 39 minutes ago
Context: BIPM is responsible for the UTC time standard, and in this document they decide to stop adding (or removing) leap seconds, starting on 20th of May 2027 and lasting for the foreseeable future (until one leap hour is needed). Together with the decision to not add a leap second in December, the 27 leap seconds that have been added so far should be the only ones.

The page lists several good reasons for this, including:

- It's a common source of bugs.

- IoT, embedded systems, and anything that cannot receive time updates have trouble with leap seconds.

- Negative leap seconds have never occurred before, but might occur in the future, and almost no software has tested this case.

I'd also add:

- Unix timestamps are actually defined as "seconds since epoch minus however many leap seconds have happened". It's a hack to make the keep code that assumes 86400 seconds in a day from breaking. It means that during a leap second the Unix timestamp goes back and repeats a previous value, making them ambiguous and non-monotonic.

- Leap second unpredictability can make it impossible to calculate how many seconds are between two UTC dates or Unix timestamps, for example the countdown to the year 2038 bug.

@dan: can we rename this to "BIPM decides to stop adding leap seconds to UTC" or something similar? This title is really downplaying the situation, I think readers over here care a lot about this.

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throw0101c 20 minutes ago
> - Negative leap seconds have never occurred before, but might occur in the future, and almost no software has tested this case.

FreeBSD tests stuff like this for the code that they take care of:

* https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-stable/2020-Nove...

Third-party stuff (like from Ports) is another question.

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gliffie 14 minutes ago
Thank you for providing context for other readers. I was unsure what do to with the title, as my experience is that editorialized titles are always eventually changed to the original title. The "actual" title here is "Resolution 5 (2026)", but I decided to go with the much more specific subheading "On the technical actions needed to ensure the continuity of UTC". Curiously, "On" was removed on submission.
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BoppreH 6 minutes ago
My first interpretation of the title was that UTC was in danger of something that needed fixing. It didn't occur to me that "continuous" meant in the mathematical sense.

On a side note, I really like how the site laid the reasoning. I'll be copying it to my technical writing.

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layer8 34 minutes ago
> - Leap seconds make predicting the clock time of timestamps in the future impossible.

I don’t see that reason listed on the page, and future wall-clock times remain unpredictable due to changes in time zone rules.

What will become predictable is the relationship between posix time and elapsed time (in the sense of TAI), at least within the next few hundred years.

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BoppreH 28 minutes ago
Good, point, I've reworded that bit.
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likpok 30 minutes ago
> @dan: can we rename this to "BIPM decides to stop adding leap seconds to UTC" or something similar? This title is really downplaying the situation, I think readers over here care a lot about this.

@-tags like this don't do anything, you're better off sending an email. I think hn@ycombinator.com is the address.

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BoppreH 27 minutes ago
I'm well aware that HN doesn't have @ tags, but I would be surprised if dan doesn't have something listening for this specific string. And not a big enough deal to warrant an email in my opinion, but you're free to send one.
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frangonf 2 hours ago
Goodbye sundial welcome cesium clock. Astrology app devs: remember to carry the drift in Temporal for the Ascendant, specially around 2267 you might get your love and money life predictions messed up.
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hnuser123456 44 minutes ago
A practical solution. As long as we can keep 12:00 near high noon and 00:00 near "high midnight(?)", that should be good enough.
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smartmic 2 hours ago
Short: no more leap seconds
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jcranmer 2 hours ago
TL;DR: No more leap seconds. The replacement will not be leap minutes but leap hours.
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throw0101c 14 minutes ago
> The replacement will not be leap minutes but leap hours.

People have a hard time with leap years, which happen regularly every four years, so I'm curious to know how well a "one-off" event at a basically random time in the future will work.

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layer8 48 minutes ago
…the next which is expected in roughly a 1000 years: https://www.ucolick.org/~sla/leapsecs/futuredelt.svg
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throw0101c 9 minutes ago
> …the next which is expected in roughly a 1000 years: https://www.ucolick.org/~sla/leapsecs/futuredelt.svg

Which doesn't seem like that is soon, but time/calendar issues can creep up and then it's a big hullabaloo:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_calendar

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krunck 48 minutes ago
Am I wrong in interpreting this as just pushing the problem (divergence between International Atomic Time and the rotational speed of the earth) 100 years in the future?
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hnuser123456 38 minutes ago
This essentially means being less anal about ensuring the earth has the exact same clock time at the exact same earth-sun-relative rotational position. Turns out the earth spins up and slows down semi-randomly with a magnitude big enough to require positive or negative leap seconds every few years, and it's just not worth the effort. Leap minutes might only be needed around every 100 years, but that would still be annoying, so they dropped all the way to leap hours, probably not needed for thousands of years. As long as the sun rises in the morning and sets in the afternoon, that saves on a lot of frequent minor adjustments. Timezones are already an hour wide anyways, and the sun isn't in the same spot when you're on the western vs eastern edges.

Sure, you could also run a relativistic simulation of the solar system, galaxy, and cosmos to establish a more monotonic clock and calendar independent of imperfect orbital parameters, but that's a bit much for discerning whether or not it's lunchtime.

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wahern 19 minutes ago
> Sure, you could also run a relativistic simulation of the solar system

Barycentric Coordinate Time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barycentric_Coordinate_Time

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layer8 45 minutes ago
Several hundred years at least (see my sibling comment). And in all likelihood this will be handled by shifting the time zones by an hour, or possibly by omitting one DST adjustment in spring.

In the very far future, leap seconds would become inadequate anyway, as you’d have to insert them every month, then every week, then every day, due to the deceleration of Earth’s rotation.

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